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An adult (pre)beginner's ponderings



 
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OnkelT
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:41 am    Post subject: An adult (pre)beginner's ponderings Reply with quote

Hello

I just joined here, and would have liked to start with some very basic questions. I'm a 43-year old fellow from Finland. I've played the guitar for couple of decades, but in the last few years I've noticed a certain boredom having set in when it comes to the stringed instruments, I would very much like to learn something "completely different". I don't have any grand visions of becoming a bebop- star, I would be mostly learning this just for myself.

So, I've been looking at some starter trumpets (and cornets), and would need recommendations on which one to buy. The local market for used trumpets seems pretty limited, I've only come across either really expensive instruments, or quite questionable ones (for example a Soviet instrument from the 80's). I can't blow a lot of money on this, so I think 300€ would have to do now. Here's a couple I've been looking at:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_tr4_bbtrompete.htm?ref=intl&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6IjIiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6ImVuIn0%3D

https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_tr620_l_bb_trompete.htm?ref=intl&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6IjIiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6ImVuIn0%3D

https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_tr_4000l_bb_trumpet_b_stock.htm?ref=intl&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6IjIiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6ImVuIn0%3D

Comparing those Thomann- horns, what do I get more in a 100€ more expensive model?

https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_cr_600g_bbkornett.htm?ref=intl&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6IjIiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6ImVuIn0%3D

I do kind of like the cornet sound pretty much as well, to me it has a bit more grit to it.

Then my next concern would be, as I noticed another recent thread here about it, is there a way to tell if a misaligned lower front tooth of mine will spell trouble for learning the instrument? I can post a picture, but it's just set a bit in from the other front teeth.

Any tips, links, advice is more than welcome! Thanks in advance.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to suggest you start on a cornet - IMO better to learn tone on.. but the modern approach is to start everyone on a trumpet.

I will suggest that you find a Teacher first, someone that will help you pick a reasonable instrument and then guide you through your process. Realize that trumpet/cornet is not a "pedestrian" instrument.. Unlike a guitar, you can't play a little, put it down, then pick it up and expect to be at the level you left.
Even moderate success is a daily commitment measured in years.

I'd also look around (with your teacher) for a used Yamaha, Bach, Conn, Getzen or other "big name" student model trumpet, get yourself a new mid-sized mouthpiece, then hit the shed
(there are no "beginner" mouthpieces.. we start with something in the middle, not big, not small = Yamaha 11C4, Bach 7C, 5C are some of the most common)
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try to find a local 'community' or 'town' band in your area - someone there might be able to help you get started. Or, see if any local schools have a band director who could help you.
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OnkelT
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny thing, just after I posted this thread here today, a friend called back and told that his father has a valve trombone he could borrow me. It should be a quality instrument in good playing condition. It's not a trumpet but on the other hand it's free, so there's not much to complain about I guess. At least I'll have some instrument to learn the basics on, and can take my time trying to find a good 2nd hand trumpet or cornet. Not to mention that I'll get good brass playing contacts once I go pick the instrument up.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It matters zero what you end up with, a trumpet, cornet or valve trombone (which it can be argued will NEVER be a quality instrument) what WILL matter is if you attempt to start yourself without the assistance of a good teacher.

Get the teacher lined up FIRST, the instrument second and then you will have a good chance at enjoying the experience.

chgeers

Andy
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:29 pm    Post subject: an adult (pre beginner's) ponderings Reply with quote

I would say this, and I mean no disrespect to anyone else commenting; pay attention to Zaferis. Lots of truth there and the starting on cornet is just genius. I started 59 years ago (on trumpet) cause my band teacher was a trumpet guy and he would have accepted anything my parents bought for me, but after 8 years of lessons and lots of contests, etc. I went to college and earned a spot in their wind band. I was given a cornet to play as that was their section (6 cornets and 1 or 2 trumpets). I made more progress in the remainder of that school year because (I believe) of using the cornet. Learning my sound, yes. Getting measurably better on technical studies, yes. I used the cornet twice to play juries for the brass and wind staff at the end of terms. I got the comment from one teacher who was there when I auditioned to go to school there that I made great progress in playing like a soloist vs. playing as a part of a section or section leader. I can't tell ya what to do, and i hope you love playing. I kind of wish I had found the cornet a little earlier. I do love the trumpet, though.
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OnkelT
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enrolled at a local conservatory as a "Instrument Pedagogy"-course's dummy student. You get a whole semester's worth of teaching for a very fair price, and I bet a bunch of good contacts as well.

If they let me start with the valve trombone I'll do just that, if not, I'll get a trumpet/cornet.
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dkutter
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning everyone,
I’m a new member too and I started to play like 4 years ago at the age of 46. It’s a pure hobby for me and I never thought to perform anything, I play for myself and I love it. Of course I try to improve and I got most of my infos on techniques and gears from this wonderful forum reading tons of posts from veterans. I have a teacher (that’s the first thing you should do) and also I’m going to arrange online lessons with good US trumpeteers. As for the instrument I highly recommend you the Yamaha 2330 a very cheap horn that I found very good according to my teacher too. I think you can find an used one easily if you don’t want a new one.
Hope this can be useful, happy music to you all!!!


Last edited by dkutter on Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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delano
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
It matters zero what you end up with, a trumpet, cornet or valve trombone (which it can be argued will NEVER be a quality instrument) ...
Andy


Hmm, Juan Tizol, Bob Brookmeyer ehhh....

edit: BTW I suppose it's easier to go from a small mouthpiece like that for trumpet and cornet to a bigger one for the trombone.
But to go from a big one to a small one, hmm I don't know.
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Last edited by delano on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OnkelT wrote:
I enrolled at a local conservatory as a "Instrument Pedagogy"-course's dummy student. You get a whole semester's worth of teaching for a very fair price, and I bet a bunch of good contacts as well.

If they let me start with the valve trombone I'll do just that, if not, I'll get a trumpet/cornet.


Wow, that sounds interesting. I wonder if they will experiment on you with teaching techniques and see which works best or if they will take you through a systematic course. I guess it will certainly allow you to see if brass is for you, and you can probably ask a lot of questions, meet teachers and high level students, etc. I hope you will report how it goes.
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OnkelT
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Wow, that sounds interesting. I wonder if they will experiment on you with teaching techniques and see which works best or if they will take you through a systematic course. I guess it will certainly allow you to see if brass is for you, and you can probably ask a lot of questions, meet teachers and high level students, etc. I hope you will report how it goes.


Yes, I'm pretty excited myself, as the price is only a fraction of what the same amount of private lessons would otherwise cost. I'm just waiting for their answer whether they will approve me and my valve trombone, as it's not one of the official "choices". If not, I will probably just buy a Thomann cornet, as it will still be cheaper Come next spring, I'll be a lot wiser in many respects.
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OnkelT
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I got the valve trombone yesterday. It's an Amati, Czech origin I believe? It's been serviced by an professional and should be in good playing condition. My first question would be what is the proper way to hold the thing? I've been trying to look at pictures of players but can't quite make it out.
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Eliot
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an idea for you re your new trom (came from my wife)

How about you check out UTube searching for trombone recital/s or something similar. A close up of the performers should show one how to hold the trom.


Have fun.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to short circuit the whole thing, but what instrument do you like listening to the most? Which one could you just listen to for hours and never get tired of it. Because that's the instrument you should start on. I'm not a big fan of the trumpet sound. Too harsh for my ears. I love cornets, flugelhorns, french horns and mellophones. The melodious sound of those I just find more pleasing.

The reason I say this is that practice will mean listening to that instrument for hours every day. You should play something that you like listening to.
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:49 am    Post subject: Cornet Reply with quote

I started six years ago learning the cornet/trumpet. Until recently, all the cornets I have owed play sound better to me than a trumpet. Seems to me that cornets are were more responsive.

This changed after buying a Getzen 700 trumpet.

Buy the instrument that speaks to you. When I feel proficient enough in playing the trumpet, will buy a tenor sax.

Tried playing a trombone, didn't work for me.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For an amazing example of beautiful valve trombone playing check out the second movement of this, starting at about 2:10. You will also see how Enrique Crespo holds it. I think I have copied the URL and the right time.

https://youtu.be/bcCL1aNPRNg?t=130
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C: Kanstul 1510-2 (SP) (circa 2000)
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Bass Tr: Mack Brass stencil (Jin Bao) (SP)
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Eliot
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
For an amazing example of beautiful valve trombone playing check out the second movement of this, starting at about 2:10. You will also see how Enrique Crespo holds it. I think I have copied the URL and the right time.

https://youtu.be/bcCL1aNPRNg?t=130


That's gotta be "brilliant brass" or perhaps "brilliant Bach." Not sure which.
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Bill_Bumps
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Not to short circuit the whole thing, but what instrument do you like listening to the most? Which one could you just listen to for hours and never get tired of it. Because that's the instrument you should start on.


That's an interesting point. I've played clarinet since I was eight years old (that was in 1956), and I've gotten fairly good with it. But of all the major clarinet greats of the past, the only one I can listen to for indefinite periods is Artie Shaw.

I took up the trumpet six or seven months ago, and I'ver grown very fond of it in that time. I'm certainly not (yet) as proficient with it as I am with the clarinet, but I find the sound way more appealing. In fact, I was just saying to my wife today that I wonder if it might not have been better if the trumpet had been the instrument on which I'd started, lo those many years ago.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The valve trombone is a complicated instrument and often not very useful. Though there are some great players of the valve trombone, more often it functions as a low quality substitute for the slide trombone in low range amateur orchestras with the possible exception of Austria where the valve trombone seems to have some popularity. Most of the time they blow heavy with an uncertain pitch and slotting, often a lousy intonation and an absolute lack of resonance. Certainly not a nice instrument to start on. That maybe different for the expensive ones from Conn, King, Kanstul, Olds and so on.
The 4 valve trombone of Enrique Crespo in the youtube clip above is not a good example because it is a 4 valve alto trombone in Eflat, probably built for him by Thein, I am not sure about that.
Most trombonists I know don't double on the valve trombone but on the bass trumpet.
BTW I own a York valve trombone and it's very difficult to play. I can compare it with my Conn 6H slide trombone and the differences in playability are HUGE!
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at it from the standpoint of traditional pedagogy, in the trombone world valve trombone probably isn't the ideal instrument to start on - my first instinct would be to say to get a standard trombone and learn that first or at least learn it along with the valve bone. Perfectly usable Bb tenor trombones can be had very inexpensively.

However, if you're just looking for something "different" a valve bone is definitely different. A question to ponder is under what circumstances are you going to find a use for it? You don't generally see them as a standard part of ensembles outside of oompah bands. They're also used as a novelty solo instrument with jazz ensembles.

As far as your original question on trumpet - there are lots of decent inexpensive instruments. If the valves work okay, there are no leaks, it's basically sound mechanically, the most important thing is to pick one up and start practicing. When you get good enough to tell the difference, you can always get something else.
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