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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:52 am Post subject: Two kinds of endurance. Which do you notice? |
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Type 1. Your chops are tired. It's been a long day. First there was the marching band's endless rehearsal. Later there's a brass choir ensemble. Towards the end of this your upper lip is so tired that it can not play anything above the staff. Not without say a five to ten minute break.
We've all had this kind of issue. Notice that I didn't say "problem"? Physical fatigue is just part of a brass player's experience. Starting from day one as a raw beginner. We probably all know this kind of fatigue. But there's another matter affecting endurance.
Type 2. A few weeks ago you bought a shallower mouthpiece to better execute the lead trumpet book in the big band. And for the next couple of weeks afterwards it worked great. Notes around high C that you could barely play before on your 3C now pop out with grace and power.
Then on your third week playing the shallower mouthpiece during the second half of a big band rehearsal and after particularly grueling first half your sound suddenly "cuts out" at the end of a phrase going slightly above the staff. In addition to losing resonance on that high note phrase you also fluffed a couple of Low C's during another entrance. Which never used to happen. The sound barely comes out. It has also been taking longer to warm up lately.
The situation is so disturbing that the next day you practice a little more. Just to try and get into stronger shape. This however has the reverse effect. And your sound cuts out on a high note phrase even earlier during the next big band rehearsal. This confuses you. But again you're not tired physically. Its just that for some reason the sound doesn't want to come out of your horn so easily. It's like you've lost resonance in your chops. This happens earlier in the performance now. Even though you've been practicing more lately. So by all rights you should have even better endurance on high notes.
On balance you're still playing a much improved lead trumpet part in big band. However this lost resonance seems to mimick your previous condition of being too tired in the chops to play a high C. In fact the net result is virtually the same as if you were feeling fatigued.
My comments later. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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bike&ed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 1837
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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I used to deal with both of these all the time, very, very, VERY annoying for sure, and it's easy to lose gigs from stuff like this happening! It took years, but moving to a flat, low pressure setup helped tremendously. I've had great strides in my sound for both orchestral and commercial/jazz/lead/etc. types of performances (all professional), and with shallow through very deep mpcs. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Fatigue, over use, call it what you will. I believe many of us have experienced it, the ONLY thing that has worked for me in the past is rest. Yes, that can be easier said than done if you have lots of playing responsibilities, but it’s the only thing that has worked for me. Long tones, flexibility exercises, soft playing, low register playing....nothing has ever really worked for me other than rest.
I believe that many players who reach a certain level of accomplishment are often obsessive compulsive, and not practicing goes against the mindset of someone who has reached a certain level BECAUSE of a dedicated practice regimen, but sometimes the old “listen to your body” adage is something we should do more of.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6126 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Isometric tension _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1459 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | Isometric tension |
An isometric contraction of a muscle generates tension without changing length. Sure but what are the implications? What do you mean? How is this related to Lionel´s post? Please develop your idea!
Lionel´s post reflects a rather common experience, in my humble opinion.
Sooner or later your chops get tired - the reasons for this are multiple, including too much pressure, an outfit that stresses vulnerable elements in your embouchure (like a too cramped mouthpiece, or the reverse, ad infinitum). Etc etc.
I´ve been helped by a method that uses some kind of isometric training, the BE. So when I encounter this condition, like the other day, having played a lead part sailing above the band (a score on "Brazil")my chops got sour - but playing the part down an octave preserved the rhythm and melody - next tune I was fit for fight again. Prior to the BE my lips would have stayed sour, next day numb and so forth. _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2310 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:02 am Post subject: |
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I can read into your post that not only are you fighting a fatigue issue but maybe also a pressure issue (as in too much) which is being aggravated by switching and new gear.
Physical attributes of endurance get better with time, lots of time, practicing well and improving your technique. As you get better you're not only getting "stronger" but you're also getting more efficient, then relaxing - all improve endurance.
I break down endurance into 3 forms: short-term, long-term, and day-to-day. How long can I play without needing a short break (phrases/tunes/etudes/solos), how long can I play throughout a day with a little bit of rest, and then day to day (how fast do you recover especially from a "max" day)
Gear has an impact. I'd say that you're truly not adjusted to the new-ish gear it takes time for you chops to learn. This is where I believe having the same rim helps. If your commercial setup is a different size AND shallower, you'er adding much more adjustment. And you're probably not usded to switching - can take a long time for the chops to "learn".
Additionally, if your gear is out of tune, then you're working harder in play, having to lip notes up or down = more fatiguing.
Without knowing the specifics nor being able to see/hear you... I'm first concerned with the amouth of pressure you're using to play your upper register (your comment about the sound stopping is a hint that you are pressing too much). Then I'd look at gear - is the shallower mouthpiece too different, are you just not used to it, and or is there a better fit for you in general??
Right at the end of my USAF Band career I found Mark Curry's mouthpieces, a long story, but found that my already pretty good endurance and range got noticeably better, plus my consistency from day to day jumped up dramatically. I can only attribute that to the right fit for me. Not a magic bullet, but I don't feel like I'm fighting the mouthpiece, I don't get as sore/fatigued, so I relax, etc.. a vicious circle of better results. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | I'm first concerned with the amouth of pressure you're using to play your upper register (your comment about the sound stopping is a hint that you are pressing too much). Then I'd look at gear - is the shallower mouthpiece too different, are you just not used to it, and or is there a better fit for you in general??
Right at the end of my USAF Band career I found Mark Curry's mouthpieces, a long story, but found that my already pretty good endurance and range got noticeably better, plus my consistency from day to day jumped up dramatically. I can only attribute that to the right fit for me. Not a magic bullet, but I don't feel like I'm fighting the mouthpiece, I don't get as sore/fatigued, so I relax, etc.. a vicious circle of better results. |
This. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:30 am Post subject: |
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I am not so sure (like Zaferis seems to be) that Lionel is talking about his own problem(s) (YOUR chops are tired, YOU bought a shallower mouthpiece) . I suspect some nice twist in the near future. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Deleted.
Last edited by dstpt on Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Nice that you learned a new word. Bravo!
I didn't know the word but I knew the phenomenom. But I am afraid you didn't understand it quite well because there is not any connection with this thread.
The funny thing is that your post is a great example of senescence by itself so even if you did not understand the notion of senescence in depth, at the same time you made it completely clear for anybody else. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:11 am Post subject: |
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Deleted.
Last edited by dstpt on Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Maybe you should read the original post here. It's about being tired after a long day in marching band and so on, and the weariness after changing to a shallower mp (you can do that even before 20). It's definitely not about older players. Your other arguments have nothing to do with this thread and I really doubt with any other post of Lionel.
The possible problems of aging trumpet players may have more to do with overload and or with more demanding scores than with a general biological process that functions as (one of) the source(s) of aging.
But you are free to start a new topic on this subject but please do first the rethinking of this subject. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:16 am Post subject: |
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For many players, when going shallower there comes a point where your technique needs to change. Failure to adjust causes the symptoms you describe. I've got a friend that rocks about the shallowest piece I've seen, and he was very specific about the need to adjust his embouchure and how long it took him to do so. Specifically to keep the lips from collapsing into the cup. When I tried to do that it caused me secondary problems with sound production and endurance so for some time now, I have abandoned my attempts to play shallow pieces. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | For many players, when going shallower there comes a point where your technique needs to change. Failure to adjust causes the symptoms you describe. I've got a friend that rocks about the shallowest piece I've seen, and he was very specific about the need to adjust his embouchure and how long it took him to do so. Specifically to keep the lips from collapsing into the cup. When I tried to do that it caused me secondary problems with sound production and endurance so for some time now, I have abandoned my attempts to play shallow pieces. |
Hmm. You know Cheiden you may have just illustrated a third form of endurance I hadnt thought of. The "collapsing into the cup" chops syndrome. Although it might be just a subset of the other two.
I have observed numerous trumpet players turned off to the shallower pieces because their chops "bottomed out". Oddly enough I eventually found this matter to help develop some very powerful high notes. Like yourself I was originally annoyed when my lips hit bottom and I lost resonance. My tone then just quit. Solution at the time was?
Keep on blowing even harder!. Perhaps it's just the way that my own embouchure works. However back before I switched over to the Stevens System I used to get these HUGE G's above high G but only after my chops bottomed out lol. At first this happened only on my shallow mouthpiece. However later on I started to pucker my lips more when in a large mouthpiece too.
Whammo! That worked too! From that day on every time I wanted a loud high note? I purposely bottomed out my lips deep into the mouthpiece cup and blew like Hell. However useful this was? (And it gave me a career too) it was still limited just all the notes up to high G. Later on I developed the same register without bottoming out as much but it still kinda remained very hard to play above a high G. It was however a really nice G. It seemed that after I bottomed out my chops all the notes between High D and G above would get HUGE in tone. Had this continued on up to Double C? I'd have been so pleased that I probably never would have studied embouchure and you wouldn't see me posting here presently. It was my limitations which spurred my learning process.
Today in the Stevens System I'm not using much arm pressure. In fact arm pressure is anathema to the system. However I have yet to solve some resonance issues with my chops. Lately my lips feel very swollen. Not like an injury but just like my whole set of facial muscles has some extra blood flowing through it. When this happens?
I can barely hit a G top of the staff. Not until I've warmed up to close to an hour and some days even longer. So I just leave it in its case. Trying always to remember that I'm only still a beginner on this system. Perseverance is helping however. As on some occasions I can easily connect my tuning note to well abive double C. And eith almost as big of a sound as my former method had on a high G.
Perseverance and open-mindedness seem to be the ticket. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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daltongonzo New Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2019 Posts: 1
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: |
Prior to the BE my lips would have stayed sour, next day numb and so forth. |
What is the BE?? |
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Balanced Embouchure
Check it out in the dedicated forums |
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Bill_Bumps Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2019 Posts: 157
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Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Fatigue, over use, call it what you will. I believe many of us have experienced it, the ONLY thing that has worked for me in the past is rest. Yes, that can be easier said than done if you have lots of playing responsibilities, but it’s the only thing that has worked for me. Long tones, flexibility exercises, soft playing, low register playing....nothing has ever really worked for me other than rest.
I believe that many players who reach a certain level of accomplishment are often obsessive compulsive, and not practicing goes against the mindset of someone who has reached a certain level BECAUSE of a dedicated practice regimen, but sometimes the old “listen to your body” adage is something we should do more of.
Brad |
I'm starting to think you are right, Brad.
For a while, now, I've had a problem with inconsistency in my playing. One day, I'll be cruising right through my practice material, hitting all the high notes, with never any buzzing or uncertain tone. Next day my lip will be mush, and I'll be straining to get out of the staff.
I've been puzzled and frustrated by this phenomenon. But now, having read your comments, I'm beginning to wonder if over-practicing isn't behind it. I've been very rigid in following what you call a "dedicated practice regimen" every day. And I wonder if those days of easy proficiency are what's been pounding my lip and leading to poor results the following day. When things are going well, it's easy to overstrain the lips and play too high and too long.
As I was reading your post, I started becoming aware that my lips were sore and slightly swollen, tending to confirm my fears. I'm definitely one who is a fanatic about practicing regularly -- as you desecribe, "not practicing goes against the mindset of someone who has reached a certain level BECAUSE of a dedicated practice regimen." But two days past, I was playing beautifully, while yesterday I could barely get through my easier numbers.
And so, although it really rubs me the wrong way, I am going to skip trumpet practice today, and give my lips a bit of R&R. I'll see if it helps, and post the results. |
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rick398 Regular Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2012 Posts: 16 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Some of my best practice days have come the day after a day of rest on the horn.
I've had days where I start practice and just right off that it's not going well, so I set it down and walk away (usually frustrated and in disgust) but come back the next day and everything just clicks. |
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