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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:24 am Post subject: Gap/insertion amount for Yamaha Xeno/6335 models

Hi

I've started a new thread, cross-referencing with what me and cgaiii have been discussing regarding mouthpiece insertion amount considerations when trying the Yamaha Xeno/6335 models.

i.e. https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=151419

From the thread above:

cgaiii wrote:

Louise Finch wrote:

My James R New mouthpieces all have a 27 throat and 10 backbore. Your 26 throat and 24 backbore are obviously more open, but the reduction in resistance is again obviously in a different place. I definitely think that a Yamaha 16C4 would be worth trying. Please let me know if you do try one.

Perhaps we should start a new thread on this Lou, but I looked up James R. New mouthpieces. Very interesting. How did you happen onto them, and what do you find better? Do you use their components or one-piece mouthpieces?

Hi

I used Jim New for custom mouthpiece work when he was the mouthpiece man at Kanstul. It was a long time ago, but I believe that my initial reason was that I was having a difficulty finding a Bach 3C cornet mouthpiece with a rim I liked as much as my 2005 trumpet Bach 3C. I contacted Kanstul because I had presumably heard of them/been recommended them on here, and they offered a service of scanning an original mouthpiece.

Jim New scanned my trumpet 3C I believe in the beginning of 2009, and when he started his own mouthpiece business, I checked with him, he still had the scans of my mouthpiece, so I have since ordered directly from him.

I find him extremely knowledgeable, very easy to deal with, very professional, and to offer an excellent product for a pretty reasonable price.

I have only ever used custom tops, and all except one (my 3C rim with a Bach 3D cup, which I haven't used in years), are all copies of the top end of this same trumpet 3C.

I use a standard Kanstul B10 cornet backbore on cornet, and on trumpet, I use not a custom backbore, but not one from his range either. His S backbore is a copy of a Bach 10 backbore from one of Arturo Sandovals Mt Vernon 3Cs, which differs from a typical Bach 10 backbore in having had the backbore reamer inserted further. From memory, according to Jim, this opens up the blow a little and gives a little richer sound. Personally I prefer a more typical Bach 10 backbore, probably because this is what I'm used to, and since I wanted to match what I use on cornet, Jim New has made me a fair number of standard Bach 10 backbores, which I like his 6.5 sleeve on my Yamaha trumpets (Xeno II Bb, 651 D, 6610 D/Eb), mid 1950s Boosey and Hawkes Oxford Bb, and Kanstul made F Bessson Classic C. After trying both the 6 and 6.5 sleeve on my Bach 37, Jim made me a 6.25 sleeve, which inserts around 24.5mm in my Bach 37 compared to the 24mm of my Bach 3C.

Whether or not it is owing to my Bach 37 having a gap less leadpipe for a reason I don't know, I find it less gap sensitive that my Yamaha Xeno or Boosey and Hawkes Oxford. I find that the Xeno and Oxford have a gap sweet spot, when the trumpet suddenly comes alive in your hands, far more responsive and open, both in blow and feel, whereas I find that my Bach 37 plays well and similarly with an insertion amount between around 23.8mm and 25.2mm, just becoming more open in blow with less defined slots, as the insertion amount increases. I've gone with around the middle point for my Bach 37.

I have never really experimented on my other trumpets. I bought them all either new old stock or used, and they all played well straight off with the James R New 6.5 sleeve.

To me, the James R New 6.5 sleeve is my "Yamaha sleeve". That it replicated the insertion amount of a Yamaha mouthpiece, is not a coincidence in my opinion, and I personally believe that me preferring this sleeve is as much to do with this sleeve matching the insertion amount of my Yamaha Xeno/supplied Yamaha mouthpiece, than anything to do with my personal gap preferences.

This sleeve just seems to give me the right level of blow resistance and right security of slotting.

I am very happy with my James R New mouthpiece components.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

cgaiii
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Gap/insertion amount for Yamaha Xeno/6335 models

Louise Finch wrote:

To me, the James R New 6.5 sleeve is my "Yamaha sleeve". That it replicated the insertion amount of a Yamaha mouthpiece, is not a coincidence in my opinion, and I personally believe that me preferring this sleeve is as much to do with this sleeve matching the insertion amount of my Yamaha Xeno/supplied Yamaha mouthpiece, than anything to do with my personal gap preferences.

This sleeve just seems to give me the right level of blow resistance and right security of slotting.

I am very happy with my James R New mouthpiece components.

Thanks Lou, for starting this thread.
You nailed what I am looking for with my Yamaha 6335, but just cannot quite find. Like your Bach 37, it seems that this horn is not as sensitive to gap as some other horns. It may be a "sport" among Yamahas (it was only produced initially for the US market, can't get one in Japan). I am looking for that sweet spot and still looking.
Last night, I did some more experimentation with Harrelson shims. This time I inserted the largest shim I have and reduced the gap to about 1/3 of what it was previously. I definitely noticed the change in slotting by playing lip slurs. The "blow" did not feel much different, and upper range characteristics are not really different (other than being more fluid). Definitely not the "sweet spot" I am looking for. This was a 0.080 inch shim, which is 2 mm. I will try a 0.04" (1 mm) shim this evening if time allows. This way I can use my favorite mouthpiece and still adjust the gap.
These shims are great for testing, but I like the idea of a more permanent solution like James R. New once I get things figured out.
Have you used the Gap Modulator he offers?
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Gap/insertion amount for Yamaha Xeno/6335 models

cgaiii wrote:

Louise Finch wrote:

Thanks Lou, for starting this thread.

Hi cgaiii

You are very welcome

You nailed what I am looking for with my Yamaha 6335, but just cannot quite find. Like your Bach 37, it seems that this horn is not as sensitive to gap as some other horns. It may be a "sport" among Yamahas (it was only produced initially for the US market, can't get one in Japan). I am looking for that sweet spot and still looking.

The 6335 is available in the UK. I cannot comment on how gap sensitive it is, as I haven't personally played one, but the Xeno II and my Boosey and Hawkes Oxford are in my opinion, very gap sensitive (well the Oxford is technically mouthpiece insertion amount sensitive, as like my uncharacteristic Bach 37, it also has no ledge at the top of the leadpipe, so no actual gap).

Last night, I did some more experimentation with Harrelson shims. This time I inserted the largest shim I have and reduced the gap to about 1/3 of what it was previously. I definitely noticed the change in slotting by playing lip slurs. The "blow" did not feel much different, and upper range characteristics are not really different (other than being more fluid). Definitely not the "sweet spot" I am looking for. This was a 0.080 inch shim, which is 2 mm. I will try a 0.04" (1 mm) shim this evening if time allows. This way I can use my favorite mouthpiece and still adjust the gap.

I understand, thanks very much for sharing. What I find with decreasing the gap, is that the blow opens up both in feel in sound throughout the registers. Maybe owing to the way I use air in the upper register, this more open blow makes the upper register easier for me, although it doesn't result in any additional range. The slotting also loosens and becomes more flexible. I absolutely hate too secure slotting, and like a more open blow, so reducing the gap leads to an improvement for me, until it reaches a point when slotting loses its accuracy and there becomes too little blow resistance.

Like I said above, I don't know the characteristics of the 6335, but whether it has a range in which the slotting and blow are more favourable, or there is a sudden sweet spot, in my opinion, the range of gaps which will work well for you, will be within a too narrow range for a change of 2mm to likely find the sweet spot. What I mean, is that the sweet spot if there is one, is likely to be somewhere between where you were originally and this extra 2mm.

These shims are great for testing, but I like the idea of a more permanent solution like James R. New once I get things figured out.

The shims sound good. I know that Bob Reeves sleeves are available in 1/64"(0.396mm) increments. If I'm understanding correctly, Harrelson shims are available in 0.03" increments, which equates to 1/32" or 0.794mm increments. If I have got this right, since I feel that gap should be dialled in to at least 0.5mm, the Bob Reeves system appears more favourable, but I'm probably misunderstanding or reading old literature. Although the James R New sleeves are sold in whole and half sizes, Jim New can make custom 1/4 size sleeves, hence my 6.25 sleeve for my Bach 37.

Have you used the Gap Modulator he offers?

Yes, I have one, and I used it to confirm that I wanted a 25mm insertion amount. Once this was ascertained, Jim New send me a 6, 6.5 and 7 sleeves to try, and the 6.5 sleeve worked best and gave an insertion amount of 25.2mm.

I wouldn't want to risk you altering your everyday mouthpiece, but if you have a few Bach 1 1/2Cs or Bach 1 1/2C symphonic mouthpieces, and you are fully confident that you wouldn't be altering an irreplaceable mouthpiece, I'd recommend getting a spare/2nd mouthpiece cut for sleeves by Jim New and trying his 6.5 sleeve. It works well on all Yamaha trumpets I tried, even my D and D/Eb, and was the solution for a colleague who was unhappy with a Bach 3C on an older Yamaha 3 digit model. As an easier, less permanent solution, you could alternatively try a Yamaha 16C4 first.

A colleague gave him the trumpet, I lent him a spare Bach 3C (thinking that as he is a fairly new player who is still working on his breath support, that it would be ok for him), he reported back to me the next time that the mouthpiece didn't work for him on his trumpet, I said hold on a moment, plonked my 3C in the receiver and his face lit up. That's it he said, and asked me what I'd done, increased the insertion amount of the mouthpiece by 1mm, was my answer. Now I can't say that it will work for everyone, but it worked for me, it worked for him, and we are completely different players both in approach, style and level of experience. Also, since all I did was to replicate the insertion amount of the supplied Yamaha 16C4, I honestly do think that it will work out fine, even if it doesn't give the sweet spot that you are looking for, and if you have the mouthpiece cut for sleeves, you have the option of dialling it in to what is right for you, even if it turns out to be different to what works for me. I use James R New sleeves, but since the James R New system is compatible with the Bob Reeves system, you also have the option of trying Reeves sleeves, if they are more readily available to you.

Obviously it is up to you, and these are just the suggestion of one pretty experienced but only amateur player.

Please let me know how this works out.

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

cgaiii
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Gap/insertion amount for Yamaha Xeno/6335 models

Louise Finch wrote:

I absolutely hate too secure slotting, and like a more open blow, so reducing the gap leads to an improvement for me, until it reaches a point when slotting loses its accuracy and there becomes too little blow resistance.

I hear you on this. I like my horns open too. I think we are really on the same page and I am looking in this 6335 for what you have found in your Yamahas, etc. May be a difference in degree of openness, but I have it in my Schilke X3L. I got this Yamaha as a backup horn and horn for outside and other situations where I don't want to use the Schilke. I am just trying to make it play a little more to my liking.

Like I said above, I don't know the characteristics of the 6335, but whether it has a range in which the slotting and blow are more favourable, or there is a sudden sweet spot, in my opinion, the range of gaps which will work well for you, will be within a too narrow range for a change of 2mm to likely find the sweet spot. What I mean, is that the sweet spot if there is one, is likely to be somewhere between where you were originally and this extra 2mm.
It turns out that you were dead on, Lou. Last night, I experimented with the 0.40" (1 mm) shim and the horn fell into a nice place. I had to move to the 10 backbore (1.5 C and 1.5C with 26 throat) away from the mouthpiece I like on the Schilke (1.5C with 24 backbore and 26 throat) to get a sound I like but the horn did open up. It does not change any of the essential characteristics of the horn, but it does play nice and free in its good areas. Much more pleasant to play, slotting just at the right level with a more open blow. This did not really occur with the larger shim (narrower gap), so I guess this is a sweet spot horn by your descriptions.
The shims sound good.
The are very nice for experimenting with. I do not see them as a permanent solution. If I swab the leadpipe, I knock the shim out and have to reset it. I have already lost one that way. However, they make it possible to experiment with all kinds of gaps, so they are really nice for figuring things out. I also have the gap measurement tool and venturi measurement tool, so theoretically I could do the GR calculations, etc. (Actually tried it for the 6335, but I came up with a really large gap, and when I used tape on the mouthpiece to get the larger gap, the results were not good. I probably misunderstood something in the formula.)

I know that Bob Reeves sleeves are available in 1/64"(0.396mm) increments. If I'm understanding correctly, Harrelson shims are available in 0.03" increments, which equates to 1/32" or 0.794mm increments. If I have got this right, since I feel that gap should be dialled in to at least 0.5mm, the Bob Reeves system appears more favourable, but I'm probably misunderstanding or reading old literature. Although the James R New sleeves are sold in whole and half sizes, Jim New can make custom 1/4 size sleeves, hence my 6.25 sleeve for my Bach 37.

I'd recommend getting a spare/2nd mouthpiece cut for sleeves by Jim New and trying his 6.5 sleeve.
Since you and others on this forum helped me find the way to the 1.5C (which is the closest I could get to the Mt. Vernon/Early Elkhart 5C I played for so many years), this is pretty easy. I can get spares of the three I currently use most, stock 1.5C, 1.5c with 26 throat and Symphonic 1.5C 26 throat/24 backbore cut for sleeveves or even the modulator and experiment further.

I use James R New sleeves, but since the James R New system is compatible with the Bob Reeves system, you also have the option of trying Reeves sleeves, if they are more readily available to you.
This is good to know.

one pretty experienced but only amateur player.

Well we are in the same boat. I just have less experience with equipment experiments and greatly appreciate the details you share. Will definitely let you know how it goes. Very tempted to try one of James R. New's mouthpieces too.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

cgaiii
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:48 pm Post subject:

Two more questions for you Lou: If I bought a mouthpiece cut for Reeves sleeves, I would be able to use James R. New sleeves, right? Does the gap modulator need a special mouthpiece cutting or is it the same as for sleeves? Thanks. Charlie _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2 Picc: Kanstul 920 Bb Bugle: Kanstul Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass Flugel: Taylor Standard Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:32 pm Post subject:

cgaiii wrote:

Two more questions for you Lou:

Hi Charlie

I'll reply to your original post shortly.

If I bought a mouthpiece cut for Reeves sleeves, I would be able to use James R. New sleeves, right?

As far as I understand it, yes, as I believe that both Bob Reeves and James R New's systems are fully compatible.

Does the gap modulator need a special mouthpiece cutting or is it the same as for sleeves?

It requires a special cutting.

i.e. http://james-r-new.com/accessories/gap-modulator-50.html

Thanks.

You are always very welcome.

Charlie

Best wishes

Lou

Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: Gap/insertion amount for Yamaha Xeno/6335 models

cgaiii wrote:

Louise Finch wrote:

I absolutely hate too secure slotting, and like a more open blow, so reducing the gap leads to an improvement for me, until it reaches a point when slotting loses its accuracy and there becomes too little blow resistance.

I hear you on this. I like my horns open too. I think we are really on the same page and I am looking in this 6335 for what you have found in your Yamahas, etc. May be a difference in degree of openness, but I have it in my Schilke X3L. I got this Yamaha as a backup horn and horn for outside and other situations where I don't want to use the Schilke. I am just trying to make it play a little more to my liking.

I understand. Thanks very much for the further clarification.

Like I said above, I don't know the characteristics of the 6335, but whether it has a range in which the slotting and blow are more favourable, or there is a sudden sweet spot, in my opinion, the range of gaps which will work well for you, will be within a too narrow range for a change of 2mm to likely find the sweet spot. What I mean, is that the sweet spot if there is one, is likely to be somewhere between where you were originally and this extra 2mm.[/b]

It turns out that you were dead on, Lou. Last night, I experimented with the 0.40" (1 mm) shim and the horn fell into a nice place. I had to move to the 10 backbore (1.5 C and 1.5C with 26 throat) away from the mouthpiece I like on the Schilke (1.5C with 24 backbore and 26 throat) to get a sound I like but the horn did open up. It does not change any of the essential characteristics of the horn, but it does play nice and free in its good areas. Much more pleasant to play, slotting just at the right level with a more open blow. This did not really occur with the larger shim (narrower gap), so I guess this is a sweet spot horn by your descriptions.

Thanks very much for letting me know. I'm very pleased to hear that it is working for you. You mention something else very interesting, in that you had to move to a 10 backbore to get the sound you like but the horn did open up. I've only experimented with gap on my Xeno with a 10 backbore, so are you saying that reducing the gap by 1mm, altered your backbore preference on the Yamaha, or are you saying that in your experiments, you additionally and unrelatedly decided that the 10 backbore gave you a preferable sound on the Yamaha?

The shims sound good.

The are very nice for experimenting with. I do not see them as a permanent solution. If I swab the leadpipe, I knock the shim out and have to reset it. I have already lost one that way. However, they make it possible to experiment with all kinds of gaps, so they are really nice for figuring things out. I also have the gap measurement tool and venturi measurement tool, so theoretically I could do the GR calculations, etc. (Actually tried it for the 6335, but I came up with a really large gap, and when I used tape on the mouthpiece to get the larger gap, the results were not good. I probably misunderstood something in the formula.)

Thanks very much for this.

I know that Bob Reeves sleeves are available in 1/64"(0.396mm) increments. If I'm understanding correctly, Harrelson shims are available in 0.03" increments, which equates to 1/32" or 0.794mm increments. If I have got this right, since I feel that gap should be dialled in to at least 0.5mm, the Bob Reeves system appears more favourable, but I'm probably misunderstanding or reading old literature. Although the James R New sleeves are sold in whole and half sizes, Jim New can make custom 1/4 size sleeves, hence my 6.25 sleeve for my Bach 37.

I'd recommend getting a spare/2nd mouthpiece cut for sleeves by Jim New and trying his 6.5 sleeve.

Since you and others on this forum helped me find the way to the 1.5C (which is the closest I could get to the Mt. Vernon/Early Elkhart 5C I played for so many years), this is pretty easy. I can get spares of the three I currently use most, stock 1.5C, 1.5c with 26 throat and Symphonic 1.5C 26 throat/24 backbore cut for sleeveves or even the modulator and experiment further.

I use James R New sleeves, but since the James R New system is compatible with the Bob Reeves system, you also have the option of trying Reeves sleeves, if they are more readily available to you.

This is good to know.

You are very welcome.

one pretty experienced but only amateur player.

Well we are in the same boat. I just have less experience with equipment experiments and greatly appreciate the details you share. Will definitely let you know how it goes.

That will be really appreciated, thanks very much.

Very tempted to try one of James R. New's mouthpieces too.

I have only tried his S backbore from his range, but he really knows his stuff, so his own mouthpiece range will no doubt be very good.

Take care

Lou

cgaiii
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:32 am Post subject:

Lou, Thanks again. Still more experimentation on the way. By the way, the shims come in increments of 0.020 inches, and a standard set consists of 0.080, 0.060, 0.040, 0.020 and 0.010. You can get various inside diameters and outside diameters and Jason and Christina (I think that is her name) are really good about working with you to get what you need. I am working on getting some that will fit my Kanstul C trumpet. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2 Picc: Kanstul 920 Bb Bugle: Kanstul Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass Flugel: Taylor Standard Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:11 am Post subject:

I read this thread with amazement. I have over 50 trumpets in my collection. I put the same mouthpiece in each of them and they all play just fine. Technically, I'm probably working with over 50 different gaps. Surely not all of the gaps are "perfect" (whatever that means) for each horn yet I don't encounter anything even remotely close to the problems reported here. My range isn't compromised. My sound isn't compromised. My flexibility isn't compromised. Nothing feels "stuffy" or "choked off." I can do anything within my capabilities on every one of my horns and every one of them sounds like me. There seems to be two much different sets of experiences regarding gap. Some players seem to perceive dramatic differences based on gap. Others, like me, just put the mouthpiece into the horn and then pick it up and play it for whatever it is. There was a time that I tried sleeved mouthpieces from Reeves (I have a full set of Reeves sleeves). I never perceived any dramatic difference regardless of which sleeve I used. I'm not disputing that players perceive the difference they report. It just amazes me that the instrument is so gap sensitive for some players when, in my experience, there is apparently a wide range of gaps that work fine. _________________ HERMOKIWI

cgaiii
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Gap/insertion amount for Yamaha Xeno/6335 models

Louise Finch wrote:

Thanks very much for letting me know. I'm very pleased to hear that it is working for you. You mention something else very interesting, in that you had to move to a 10 backbore to get the sound you like but the horn did open up. I've only experimented with gap on my Xeno with a 10 backbore, so are you saying that reducing the gap by 1mm, altered your backbore preference on the Yamaha, or are you saying that in your experiments, you additionally and unrelatedly decided that the 10 backbore gave you a preferable sound on the Yamaha?

I basically have three mouthpieces that I use all the time (a lot of other paperweights), the ones I mentioned before: standard Bach 1.5C, Bach 1.5C with 26 throat, Bach Symphonic 1.5 C 26 throat with 24 backbore, in order of openness or airflow capacity. I have found that different horns respond better for me to these different mouthpieces. Maybe the change helps me regulate my airflow. The Symphonic mouthpiece allows me to get the most airflow freely -- basically, I get to do all the airflow regulation. This works great with my Schilke. I thought it would work with the 6335S, but when I finally got the gap (the most openness the horn offers), which was the sweet spot for all of the mouthpieces, I decided I liked the 10 backbore better with that horn. (This may change as I get more used to the horn.) It seems to be a matching of the tightness of the mouthpiece to the tightness of the horn for me. My feeling on this runs kind of counter the conventional wisdom of opening up a tighter horn with a more open mouthpiece. With 10 backbore, I am less tempted to overblow this horn. Does that make sense?

(All of the following may be totally the result of my needing more skill as a trumpet player, but here goes.) For me the Schilke has a very smooth rise through the registers, and I can play with airflow freely, obviously less and faster up higher, but it is a smooth continuum at various levels of airflow. With my old Yamaha 4335, I found a rather dramatic tightening up of the horn as it went above the staff (probably due to the way I play). That was why I searched out a new horn and the Schilke was a lucky find. This 6335 is in general more open than the 4335, but has the same characteristic, even more dramatically, at a higher point. It suddenly demands less airflow somewhere at B above the staff. I can make this into a smooth transition by backing off the airflow earlier, but I can also play nicely with a larger airflow right up to that point. The smaller backbore helps me be less tempted to hit that wall. That may be why it improves the sound for me.
In testing trumpets, I have found that there are some horns that have this upper register tightening (some smoothly, some dramatically) and some that do not, regardless of the general tightness of the horn. For example, I played a BSC C trumpet once. It was a pretty tight horn, but the evenness through the registers was a thing of beauty. Did not buy it because it was overall too tight for me, but it still stands out to me for how evenly it played. The choice among my three mouthpieces is affected most by the general tightness of the horn, but also by these characteristics as I move up the registers.
I think a lot of players like this tightening and many horns are designed for it. I imagine it helps, perhaps better players than me, in the upper register and may help with high register endurance.
I think these gap adjustments help you find the best spot for the horn, the most open and/or nicest playing spot for a particular horn, but the horn also has its tightness and openness characteristics, so I can never make the 6335 as open as the Schilke using gap alone. I think I have got it open enough for what I want to use it for (a beat around horn where I do not want to risk my Schilke) now with these adjustments and your help, Lou.
Sorry for the long-winded answer to a simple question.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

cgaiii
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:35 am Post subject:

HERMOKIWI wrote:

I think both Lou and I said we thought this "gap sensitivity" may have something to do with the way we play (she in the upper register and me all around). I certainly would not want to say that it will fix all trumpet problems or that it is something everyone has to do. Perhaps as I have gotten older I just need all the help I can get.

I do not think the gap changes the fundamental qualities of the horn, the mouthpiece or the horn mouthpiece combination, it just optimizes the relationship. Perhaps you are just better at adjusting to the slight variances in gap and making up for differences since you play so many different horns (which in itself requires adjustments). I'd be curious if your collection represents a wide variety of horns in terms of how tight they are and other characteristics. (It would be really fun to sit down and play a collection of 50 horns! A real education.)

I think getting the gap right for each horn/mouthpiece combination makes for less work when playing, but it does not mean that you cannot find the way to play to the extent of your abilities even if it is not optimal. You just wind up working around it and adjusting yourself. I think I could learn to compensate with this 6335 if I set my mind to it, but the gap setting also gets me there faster. Perhaps being able to automatically compensate/adjust is actually the better way to be. It certainly saves some trouble.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:00 am Post subject:

HERMOKIWI wrote:

I read this thread with amazement. I have over 50 trumpets in my collection. I put the same mouthpiece in each of them and they all play just fine. Technically, I'm probably working with over 50 different gaps. Surely not all of the gaps are "perfect" (whatever that means) for each horn yet I don't encounter anything even remotely close to the problems reported here. My range isn't compromised. My sound isn't compromised. My flexibility isn't compromised. Nothing feels "stuffy" or "choked off." I can do anything within my capabilities on every one of my horns and every one of them sounds like me.

Hi Hermokiwi

Thanks very much for sharing. There is a difference in my opinion between working fine and working at its optimum. Mouthpiece gap is obviously just one parameter that can be dialled in, to best suit the trumpet/mouthpiece/player combination. My personal experience with gap experimentation is that some trumpets are more gap sensitive overall than others, and that some have a definite sweet spot within a narrow gap range, whereas others play well within a much larger gap range.

There seems to be two much different sets of experiences regarding gap. Some players seem to perceive dramatic differences based on gap. Others, like me, just put the mouthpiece into the horn and then pick it up and play it for whatever it is.

Yes, I agree.

There was a time that I tried sleeved mouthpieces from Reeves (I have a full set of Reeves sleeves). I never perceived any dramatic difference regardless of which sleeve I used.

I'm not disputing that players perceive the difference they report. It just amazes me that the instrument is so gap sensitive for some players when, in my experience, there is apparently a wide range of gaps that work fine.

This does surprise me, but the fact that you use the word "dramatic" may be the explanation. Maybe the difference is significant rather than dramatic, and maybe it depends as much on the individual player's expectations and how important it is to them, than on their actual ability to perceive very small differences.

With my Xeno and Oxford trumpets, there is a narrow gap range which I consider to be a sweet spot. As I perceive it, the trumpet suddenly comes alive in my hands in terms of response. Am I unusually perceptive? Opticians say that I am regarding my eyes and that I am extremely visually sensitive. Or am I simply more dramatic in how I respond to what is probably overall a small change? Maybe, you perceive the same amount of change as me, and think that it is hardly any different, whereas I think wow that is much better.

All the best

Lou

Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Gap/insertion amount for Yamaha Xeno/6335 models

cgaiii wrote:

Louise Finch wrote:

Hi Charlie

No, I didn't find it at all long-winded, extremely interesting in fact, but before I reply properly, I need to get my head round all what you say. I also need to come off this computer soon. I'm waiting to pick up new glasses, and am getting eye strain and a headache, and have just enlarge the font lol. Cross referencing with my reply to Hermokiwi above, I've just thought of something else. I believe that we also train our brains to consciously rather than subconsciously notice and adjust to things, that are important and/are of interest to us. Maybe that is the true reason why some people are more gap sensitive. Maybe some people consciously consider and respond to changes in gap, whereas others subconsciously respond and adjust. Getting back on track, as much as I notice small changes in gap, I'm completely the opposite as a player, and once I've initially set my trumpet up to my liking, I play very subconsciously. I'll give all you say some thought, and get back to you.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Gap/insertion amount for Yamaha Xeno/6335 models

cgaiii wrote:

Louise Finch wrote:

Hi Charlie

No, I didn't find it at all long-winded, extremely interesting in fact, but before I reply properly, I need to get my head round all what you say. I also need to come off this computer soon. I'm waiting to pick up new glasses, and am getting eye strain and a headache, and have just enlarged the font lol. Cross referencing with my reply to Hermokiwi above, I've just thought of something else. I believe that we also train our brains to consciously rather than subconsciously notice and adjust to things, that are important and/are of interest to us. Maybe that is the true reason why some people are more gap sensitive. Maybe some people consciously consider and respond to changes in gap, whereas others subconsciously respond and adjust. Getting back on track, as much as I notice small changes in gap, I'm completely the opposite as a player, and once I've initially set my trumpet up to my liking, I play very subconsciously. I'll therefore give all you say some thought, and get back to you.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:35 am Post subject:

cgaiii wrote:

Lou,

Hi Charlie

Thanks again.

You are again very welcome.

Still more experimentation on the way.

Please continue to update this thread with your findings.

By the way, the shims come in increments of 0.020 inches, and a standard set consists of 0.080, 0.060, 0.040, 0.020 and 0.010. You can get various inside diameters and outside diameters and Jason and Christina (I think that is her name) are really good about working with you to get what you need.

All very interesting and good to know, thanks. I'd personally want to experiment in 0.5mm increments, and 0.020" is this 0.5mm.

I am working on getting some that will fit my Kanstul C trumpet.

If it is of any use to you, I also have a Kanstul made C trumpet, a F Besson Classic C, and I also use a James R New 6.5 on my C.

All the best

Lou

cgaiii
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:48 pm Post subject:

Louise Finch wrote:

Hi Lou.
All very interesting and good to know, thanks. I'd personally want to experiment in 0.5mm increments, and 0.020" is this 0.5mm.

That is nice to know. The shims definitely have some utility in quickly figuring things out.

[b]If it is of any use to you, I also have a Kanstul made C trumpet, a F Besson Classic C, and I also use a James R New 6.5 on my C.

I will log this information away as I experiment. I don't quite understand how the 6.5 sleeve relates to the gap, but I assume that it is a size that allows a certain amount of insertion of the mouthpiece. How does this number correlate to gap? I wonder how the receiver compares to the 1510 I have.

Some further questions for you.
When you got the gap modulator, how did you choose a mouthpiece to experiment with? After consulting with Jim, I have determined that it would be most economical to start with the gap modulator and one mouthpiece. My thought is to start with my middle piece (1.5 C with 26 throat), which I am fairly comfortable with on almost any horn even the bugle, or perhaps just a 1.5 C (cheaper). I think I can tell best gap by comparison even if the mouthpiece is not my preferred one on the horn. What do you think?
I worry that gap changes will affect mouthpiece choices, but a simple start is probably best.

Do you notice a difference playing with sleeves rather than a solid mouthpiece? Is your mouthpiece (or mouthpieces) modular or just one piece with a sleeve? Why did you choose this option rather than determining what you wanted with the modulator and then getting a one-piece mouthpiece made? If not modular, why not a modular set?

Thanks for your patience with all the questions.

By the way, I found that the shims I have will work with my C trumpet. I also found that using the 0.060" shim worked best. The gap was larger in this trumpet than in the Yamaha, so that makes sense. I tried even bigger, 0.080", but that was not as satisfactory and neither was 0.040".

Charlie
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:22 am Post subject:

cgaiii wrote:

Louise Finch wrote:

Hi Lou.

Hi Charlie

All very interesting and good to know, thanks. I'd personally want to experiment in 0.5mm increments, and 0.020" is this 0.5mm.

That is nice to know. The shims definitely have some utility in quickly figuring things out.

Thanks, and I agree.

If it is of any use to you, I also have a Kanstul made C trumpet, a F Besson Classic C, and I also use a James R New 6.5 on my C.

I will log this information away as I experiment. I don't quite understand how the 6.5 sleeve relates to the gap, but I assume that it is a size that allows a certain amount of insertion of the mouthpiece.

Yes, exactly, as the sleeve number increases, they insert further in the receiver. I couldn't tell you exactly by how much, as I have never experimented with gap on my C trumpet. Going back a couple of years, a colleague kindly lent me his F Besson Meha C trumpet, the model with the fixed leadpipe, probably from the 1980s. I played it with my regular mouthpiece and got good results. This is one of the reasons why when I saw a new old stock F Besson Classic C trumpet for sale, I thought that it was worth a play test. It played well with my mouthpiece, so I saw no point in changing.

How does this number correlate to gap?

The higher the sleeve number, the smaller the gap on the particular horn, but obviously the actual gap is dependent on the individual horn.

I wonder how the receiver compares to the 1510 I have.

I've looked at images of both trumpets, and the external design of the receivers look very different. How they compare internally and in terms of gap, sorry I have no idea. My F Besson Classic has a supplied Najoom leadpipe, so this may make a difference.

Some further questions for you.

When you got the gap modulator, how did you choose a mouthpiece to experiment with?

I went with my existing mouthpiece. Rightly or wrongly, my mouthpiece other than on flugel, is a fixed constant. I always start with my usual mouthpiece, and dial in the gap with this mouthpiece on any horns I try. If, which has only happened once (and that was when I tried to get a cornet-shanked version of my mouthpiece to work well on a Besson 928 Sovereign cornet, which never worked, as this cornet required a larger throat and more open backbore), I find that my mouthpiece and a particular horn combination just don't seem to suit each other very well, I stick with the mouthpiece and change the horn. However, since dialling in the gap, I've found my mouthpiece plays well on all the trumpets I have tried.

When I say that I went with my existing mouthpiece, I mean a new version of the same. Jim New basically sent me a new backbore with his gap modulator already fitted, and I used my usual top. For some reason, although I always use the same top and backbore, I always use modular tops and backbores.

After consulting with Jim, I have determined that it would be most economical to start with the gap modulator and one mouthpiece.

Sounds a good idea, and Jim would be the best to advise you.

My thought is to start with my middle piece (1.5 C with 26 throat), which I am fairly comfortable with on almost any horn even the bugle, or perhaps just a 1.5 C (cheaper). I think I can tell best gap by comparison even if the mouthpiece is not my preferred one on the horn. What do you think?
I worry that gap changes will affect mouthpiece choices, but a simple start is probably best.

I take it that you are planning on sending Jim New a Bach mouthpiece to convert for his gap modulator. Yes, I agree, I'd send him your middle piece. I also agree that you'd be able to tell best gap by comparison, even if the mouthpiece is not your preferred one on the horn.

What do I think? To be honest, since you have just a small range of mouthpieces which you like on your trumpets, I don't think that I'd personally go the gap modulator route, as as good as it is, I personally find it a little big and heavy for a permanent addition on a horn, and use it only for experimentation purposes, using sleeves as a permanent solution.

In your case, I'd order a second version of your two mouthpieces (if I remember correctly, you use a Bach 1 1/2 C but with a 26 throat, and a Bach 1 1/2C Symphonic), since they are current stock, have Jim New cut them for sleeves, and ask him to send you two each of his 6, 6.5 and 7 sleeves to try. I fully appreciate that this is a more expensive outlay, but after experimentation, you'd have a permanent solution, with the added benefit that you are experimenting on each horn with the mouthpiece you prefer on it.

Regarding whether gap changes will affect mouthpiece choices, in my opinion, possibly, if the reason for the 26 throat in the first place was to open up the blow resistance, which you are now looking to achieve via reducing the gap. The problem is that you can obviously decrease the blow resistance various ways. Keeping the cup constant, you can obviously open up the blow by reducing the gap, enlarging the throat or changing to a more open backbore, and all three open the blow in a different way. My personal opinion is that the gap needs to be dialled in on all mouthpiece/trumpet combinations, but when dialling gap in for the first time, it is worth considering whether you may have switched to a larger throat or more open backbore in the first place, not to better suit the trumpet/you combination but to compensate either completely or partially for a too large mouthpiece gap (or of course the reverse, whether you have switched to tighter mouthpiece parameters to compensate for a too small mouthpiece gap, but this doesn't seem to be the case for you/your trumpets). Backbores confuse things slightly, as they obviously vary in shape as well as size. As a possible consideration to me agreeing that it is probably best to experiment with your middle mouthpiece, since a 26 throat is pretty similar to a 27 throat, you could consider whether the move to a 26 throat was compensation for a too large gap, and decide to start your experimentation with a standard Bach 1 1/2 C with the 27 throat. Or since throat size is the only variable that actually alters the amount of air that you can put through the mouthpiece, you could decide to stay as you are, since a 26 throat is not that different in size to a 27. Obviously you can see this two ways, and I don't think either way would be wrong.

Regarding the Bach 1 1/2C Symphonic, obviously the 22 throat and 24 backbore are far more than compensates for a too large mouthpiece gap.

Do you notice a difference playing with sleeves rather than a solid mouthpiece?

No, I don't think so, although I've never compared a sleeved mouthpiece with a removable sleeve, to the same mouthpiece with the sleeve soldered in place. Some people do say that they think that a sleeve should be soldered in place once chosen, but I've never worried about this.

Is your mouthpiece (or mouthpieces) modular or just one piece with a sleeve? Why did you choose this option rather than determining what you wanted with the modulator and then getting a one-piece mouthpiece made? If not modular, why not a modular set?

Mine are all modular. Why? I don't know really. I think because originally I wanted to experiment with different backbores on cornet. My preference has always been for the 10. I also like the 7, but for some reason I never seem to like the 24, at least on cornet. Whatever the reason, I've stuck with modular, and I've got used to them. There is a difference. If they are not screwed lightly together, and are basically loose and can be turned (which is how I store them, to stop them getting stuck together), I can tell from the sound that I haven't tightened up my mouthpiece. It is less resonant. As I say, the difference in sound is enough to make me notice that my mouthpiece is not fully screwed together, rather than feeling that the mouthpiece top is loose, since I don't use a particularly large amount of mouthpiece pressure. On the flip side, if my cornet gets full of water, the shank will stick in the mouthpiece receiver (I always just place my mouthpiece in, and never twist it). In this instance, I have to unscrew the top first and take it off, if not, giving the backbore a little twist to unstick it, will result in me screwing my top to the backbore, and on a couple of occasions, I've worried that I'll never get it apart. Screwed tightly together, it feels a little different, so presumably there is a change in feedback between a one piece mouthpiece and a two piece one, which is screwed lightly together. I don't think that this is any big deal, just something you notice in terms of feedback.

I realise that I haven't quite answered your question. I experimented with the gap modulator, told Jim New what insertion amount worked for me, i.e 25 mm and how this compared to the insertion amount of my Bach 3C, i.e 24mm. He then send me a selection of sleeves to try, to best replicate this 25mm insertion amount, as I wanted to use sleeves as a permanent solution, owing to the gap modulator being a little on the bulky and heavy side, and me having a few different trumpets. Basically, I did this in two steps. Since I've done the first step and you are liking something similar on your 6335, you could maybe go with sleeves straight away, and try the 6, 6.5 and 7.

Thanks for your patience with all the questions.

You are very welcome, and considering the length of my answers, thanks very much for your patience with my thoughts and answers.

By the way, I found that the shims I have will work with my C trumpet. I also found that using the 0.060" shim worked best. The gap was larger in this trumpet than in the Yamaha, so that makes sense. I tried even bigger, 0.080", but that was not as satisfactory and neither was 0.040".

That the 0.060" shim is working best for you, is what matters in my opinion. I was going to measure the gap on my Xeno for you, but have run out of tooth picks. I however don't think it matters what it is. You've found that the 0.060" shim works best on your C trumpet, and it works better than the 0.080" and 0.040" shims either side. I think that this is what is important, rather than what the actual gap is with each of these three shims.

Charlie

Thanks very much for your patience with me.

Take care

Lou

cgaiii
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:00 am Post subject:

Louise Finch wrote:

I take it that you are planning on sending Jim New a Bach mouthpiece to convert for his gap modulator. Yes, I agree, I'd send him your middle piece. I also agree that you'd be able to tell best gap by comparison, even if the mouthpiece is not your preferred one on the horn.
Yes, that is the plan. Thanks. That seemed reasonable to me too.

What do I think? To be honest, since you have just a small range of mouthpieces which you like on your trumpets, I don't think that I'd personally go the gap modulator route, as as good as it is, I personally find it a little big and heavy for a permanent addition on a horn, and use it only for experimentation purposes, using sleeves as a permanent solution.
I guess I have really done the gap modulator experimenting with the shims, even though they work from the opposite direction -- bringing the gap/venturi further up the receiver toward the mouthpiece instead of bringing the end of the mouthpiece further down the receiver toward the original venturi. (The shims rest in the receiver, down at the venturi.) I am not sure if that makes any difference. I think I will run this by Jim and see what he says.

In your case, I'd order a second version of your two mouthpieces (if I remember correctly, you use a Bach 1 1/2 C but with a 26 throat, and a Bach 1 1/2C Symphonic), since they are current stock, have Jim New cut them for sleeves, and ask him to send you two each of his 6, 6.5 and 7 sleeves to try. I fully appreciate that this is a more expensive outlay, but after experimentation, you'd have a permanent solution, with the added benefit that you are experimenting on each horn with the mouthpiece you prefer on it.
Actually three including a stock 1.5C with the standard 26 throat, but I understand this thought. As above, I will run this by Jim.

Regarding whether gap changes will affect mouthpiece choices, in my opinion, possibly, if the reason for the 26 throat in the first place was to open up the blow resistance, which you are now looking to achieve via reducing the gap. The problem is that you can obviously decrease the blow resistance various ways. Keeping the cup constant, you can obviously open up the blow by reducing the gap, enlarging the throat or changing to a more open backbore, and all three open the blow in a different way. My personal opinion is that the gap needs to be dialled in on all mouthpiece/trumpet combinations, but when dialling gap in for the first time, it is worth considering whether you may have switched to a larger throat or more open backbore in the first place, not to better suit the trumpet/you combination but to compensate either completely or partially for a too large mouthpiece gap (or of course the reverse, whether you have switched to tighter mouthpiece parameters to compensate for a too small mouthpiece gap, but this doesn't seem to be the case for you/your trumpets). Backbores confuse things slightly, as they obviously vary in shape as well as size. As a possible consideration to me agreeing that it is probably best to experiment with your middle mouthpiece, since a 26 throat is pretty similar to a 27 throat, you could consider whether the move to a 26 throat was compensation for a too large gap, and decide to start your experimentation with a standard Bach 1 1/2 C with the 27 throat. Or since throat size is the only variable that actually alters the amount of air that you can put through the mouthpiece, you could decide to stay as you are, since a 26 throat is not that different in size to a 27. Obviously you can see this two ways, and I don't think either way would be wrong.
Very thoughtful analysis. Thanks. I had not put it all together. I feel there are some other factors affected besides blow resistance when you adjust the gap (nicer resonance, etc.), but this really brings it all into focus nicely. I think when you get the gap right, you get to matching the mouthpiece to the horn. Bad gap can interfere with this a bit or confuse it. Right gap just eliminates a factor to consider in the process of getting blow/slotting and other mouthpiece and horn combination related factors as you like them. Your analysis makes this quite clear.

Regarding the Bach 1 1/2C Symphonic, obviously the 22 throat and 24 backbore are far more than compensates for a too large mouthpiece gap.
My Bach Symphonic has a 26 throat and 24 backbore. What I find is that on my Schilke, which is a really open horn (especially with valves aligned and metal valve guides replacing the nylon ones), It leaves me a lot of room to play with air flow. I might even be able to go more open, but I do not find it necessary. I think on the tighter horns, Kanstul C and 6335, I use the tighter mouthpiece to keep myself in line and not overblow the horn (a tendency since I am used to the Schilke). So contrary to popular wisdom, I use a more open mouthpiece with a more open horn. I have thought of trying the 24 throat and 24 backbore Symphonic, since some people say that is the right combination. They are available stock with throats anywhere from 22 down to 26.

No, I don't think so, although I've never compared a sleeved mouthpiece with a removable sleeve, to the same mouthpiece with the sleeve soldered in place. Some people do say that they think that a sleeve should be soldered in place once chosen, but I've never worried about this.
Great information.

Mine are all modular. Why? I don't know really. I think because originally I wanted to experiment with different backbores on cornet. My preference has always been for the 10. I also like the 7, but for some reason I never seem to like the 24, at least on cornet. Whatever the reason, I've stuck with modular, and I've got used to them. There is a difference. If they are not screwed lightly together, and are basically loose and can be turned (which is how I store them, to stop them getting stuck together), I can tell from the sound that I haven't tightened up my mouthpiece. It is less resonant. As I say, the difference in sound is enough to make me notice that my mouthpiece is not fully screwed together, rather than feeling that the mouthpiece top is loose, since I don't use a particularly large amount of mouthpiece pressure. On the flip side, if my cornet gets full of water, the shank will stick in the mouthpiece receiver (I always just place my mouthpiece in, and never twist it). In this instance, I have to unscrew the top first and take it off, if not, giving the backbore a little twist to unstick it, will result in me screwing my top to the backbore, and on a couple of occasions, I've worried that I'll never get it apart. Screwed tightly together, it feels a little different, so presumably there is a change in feedback between a one piece mouthpiece and a two piece one, which is screwed lightly together. I don't think that this is any big deal, just something you notice in terms of feedback.

I realise that I haven't quite answered your question. I experimented with the gap modulator, told Jim New what insertion amount worked for me, i.e 25 mm and how this compared to the insertion amount of my Bach 3C, i.e 24mm. He then send me a selection of sleeves to try, to best replicate this 25mm insertion amount, as I wanted to use sleeves as a permanent solution, owing to the gap modulator being a little on the bulky and heavy side, and me having a few different trumpets. Basically, I did this in two steps. Since I've done the first step and you are liking something similar on your 6335, you could maybe go with sleeves straight away, and try the 6, 6.5 and 7.
I see. Thank you for the details. Some people say solid is better, but it is nice to know you do not feel that way. Makes the idea more appealing. I may have to try a 7 backbore. It might be a compromise. I originally bought the 24 thinking it would be good for the C trumpet, but I did not like it. It got shelved, but then I put the metal valve guides in the Schilke and it required a little more mouthpiece experimentation. I wanted something more open than the 26 throat/10 backbore. Now with the 26 throat/24 backbore, the horn plays like a hot knife cutting through butter. Makes for a lot of responsibility on the back end because there is nothing to hide behind, but it is fun to play. I am not really messing with gap on that horn.

You are very welcome, and considering the length of my answers, thanks very much for your patience with my thoughts and answers.
Your answers are great. I have always appreciated the care you take with them.

That the 0.060" shim is working best for you, is what matters in my opinion. I was going to measure the gap on my Xeno for you, but have run out of tooth picks. I however don't think it matters what it is. You've found that the 0.060" shim works best on your C trumpet, and it works better than the 0.080" and 0.040" shims either side. I think that this is what is important, rather than what the actual gap is with each of these three shims.
Agreed, but as a bit of a technical person, I like having the figures. I can calculate them from the shims for my horns and tell Jim, so all is good.

I feel we are using the forum for a kind of private conversation, but perhaps the information will be useful for someone some day. I know I get a lot of information searching the forum.

One further question. Since you use modular mouthpieces, why didn't you go one more step and eliminate the sleeves by having proper sized backbores (ones that inserted the right amount for each horn) made? That would eliminate one joint in the mouthpiece structure and you would just have to screw the top to the backbore and not add the sleeve. I believe Jim will do that.

Charlie
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:29 am Post subject:

cgaiii wrote:

I feel we are using the forum for a kind of private conversation, but perhaps the information will be useful for someone some day. I know I get a lot of information searching the forum.

Hi Charlie

Yes, hopefully the information will be useful for someone some day.

One further question. Since you use modular mouthpieces, why didn't you go one more step and eliminate the sleeves by having proper sized backbores (ones that inserted the right amount for each horn) made? That would eliminate one joint in the mouthpiece structure and you would just have to screw the top to the backbore and not add the sleeve. I believe Jim will do that.

I imagine that Jim could do this, but I've never gone this route, as I'm perfectly happy with sleeves, and if I do want to change any of my instruments, I can just change the sleeve if my existing 6.5 sleeves, don't gap well in a different trumpet.

Charlie

All the best

Lou

cgaiii
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:42 am Post subject:

Louise Finch wrote:

Hi Lou,
I imagine that Jim could do this, but I've never gone this route, as I'm perfectly happy with sleeves, and if I do want to change any of my instruments, I can just change the sleeve if my existing 6.5 sleeves, don't gap well in a different trumpet.

Thank you. Fair enough. I guess the final end game would be putting all the parameters together in a one piece mouthpiece, but it seems that it is not necessary. I just always have a little curiosity about the next step. I greatly appreciate your walking me through your process and thinking.

Charlie
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

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