Development from high F to super G

Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

Sounds good Kalijah. I'm buying all of it. Though I'll state right here and now that we'll not see the end of this perpetual argument until one of us reaches our expiration date. Until then?

It's what I call the "Dead Horse Beating Society".

One more thing about your post re larger cupped mouthpieces. In recent years I've found the bigger and deeper cups to hold fewer benefits. Lynn Nicholson in his teachings has pointed out that a "larger piece doesn't create a bigger sound. It makes a darker sound".

And while people will diss this comment I see the only problem with the statement to be that it needs a qualifier and Lynn is not at fault for this. When he was working with Maynard then later playing Vegas shows he and his fellows were usually using shallow equipment BUT WITH VERY OPEN THROATs on their mouthpieces.

Most of we mortals (lol) are used to stock shallow mouthpieces coming in #28 or #27 throats. Kinda tight! Yet these aren't usually the throat sizes found in the trumpets belonging to powerful Vegas type scream players! Indeed Maynard played a doggone #15 to #16 throat! A size which most the rest of us would consider unplayable. And yet most of the lead players in Vegas will tend to use at least use throat sizes around #22 to #24. On these pieces it becomes hard to distinguish the bigness in sound between the shallow mouthpiece user and the larger one.

Indeed the famous Bill Chase 6a4A piece that is featured in an "artist model" available from Schilke is definitely not the mouthpiece that Chase used! I know from reliable sources that his mouthpiece, though probably similar to the 6a4A had a throat size of around a #24.

From my experience the best reason to use a large, mouthpiece in a deeper cup is to.
A. Get that darker or more classical tone. And,
B. Help in the production of intervals and articulation.

Now as per the O/Ps topic? My personal opinion is that a trumpet player's embouchure either has the latent capacity to blow good high F's and G's or it doesnt. If it does not? It seems to me that the solution is partially to gain a personal understanding of how an embouchure works. That and more importantly learn why it can not play high notes. Lastly the aspiring lead player must then incorporate those measures necessary to "fix" his playing. It's not always embouchure either.

As noted by the great tubist and brass teacher Arnold Jacibs,

"I see more problems with respiration in my students than I do with embouchure".

To Jacobs breath control was always foremost and he may have been correct. At least in terms of the majority who sought his help. Take one of my own students for example. He's a college grad 30 years old. Decent trumpet player but no upper register at all. Nothing above high C that is. I was curious as to why the hell he had never ventured into the upper register. Especially since he shows much promise as a Jazz player.

The reason was that no one had ever exposed him to high notes. Nor tried to teach him!! After he got to me I put him on a steady "diet" of progressuvely higher arpeggios, some pedal tones and a better mouthpiece. After adopting these measures? He's developing a terrific extreme upper register.

Therein lies one of the problems with trumpet in the context of trumpet studies in music education today. The lack of emphasis on playing high notes in a constructive way. That and a lack of standardized methods to achieve these high notes.

.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).

JVL · Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:40 am Post subject:

hello,
Lionel introduced one parameter forgotten in this thread : the mpc. Be sure you play the right ID, the one that really fits you. This more than the other parameters of a mpc is crucial for the range (i'm not talking about about sound nor volume in the high register that depend on other mpc's factors).

then, to solve your pb, one must see and know which of the items needed are missing in your technic (of breathing or embouchure). Because you need coordination, air pivot, air support...

maybe take the opportunity to have a lesson with Bobby Shew next time he'll be in uk, if you live there

best

Denny Schreffler

kalijah · Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:18 pm Post subject:

Another possible technique. If you have a solid high F you can ease into the G at the same volume by trilling or "shake" into it at that loud volume.

I will demonstrate here. I first sound a middle C to establish a nice neutral setting.

https://youtu.be/cDOl0g1SyA4

Robert P · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2595

mohrt · Regular Member Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

For great technicals around high register playing, check out James Morrison's video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujrTDbnvDpU&t=10s

Just to note, James' information is very closely aligned with John Mohan, he even uses the same water hose analogy. Although you could stretch your lips thinner, it has limited effect. More air is the key to higher notes.

kalijah · Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:36 pm Post subject:

James Morrison presents erroneous mechanics in the video. The tonge does NOT act like a water nozzle. Additional resistance before the aperture reduces air flow AND the air energy. The tongue movement is simply related to the embouchure muscle effort. Namely the roll out action. Any air pressure loss from the arch can be made up with more blowing effort. The embouchure controls the pitch played. The air doesn't. Air is only the energy supply.

omelet · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245

I might be mistaken, but it doesn't look like Morrison rolls out, it looks like he is all rolled in with puff out lips around the mouthpiece.

Robert P · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2595

BBB1976 · Veteran Member Joined: 30 May 2016 Posts: 134

Hi folks

Wow, I never thought this post would get so much interest! In contrast to some inaccurate information here, John Mohan has summed it up well! The proof is in the pudding! John is a good player.

Happy New Year all!!!

kalijah · Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:01 am Post subject:

mohrt · Regular Member Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

mohrt · Regular Member Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:25 am Post subject:

By tightening the lip tissue and perhaps decreasing the aperture, same as everyone else. Most people tend to tense/purse the lips, press a little harder, and blow a little harder when ascending but ultimately lip tension controls the pitch.
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

JayKosta · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:23 pm Post subject:

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

mohrt · Regular Member Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

JayKosta · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:24 pm Post subject:

RussellDDixon · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:20 pm Post subject:

Without entering the battle being waged ... Playing out of "The Louis Maggio System for Brass" has helped me out a lot through the years. My (stay in playing shape routine if you will) is the Maggio Endurance Exercise every other day and playing until my chops are tired in the trumpet method - "A Tribute to William Adam; His Teachings & His Routine on the non-Maggio days ... thus, back and forth bertween the two. I sit and watch TV doing this. When I am consistently practicing everyday, I can usually play for about 90 minutes straight while wtching a corny B movie or something else.

http://www.balquhiddermusic.com/brass-studies/tribute-to-william-adam-davis

Other issues that have helped me (personally) have been going to a 10.5C inner diameter on my "legit" mouthpiece and a small v cup for my range mouthpiece. I learned this from Lynn Nicholson as well as reading articles and YouTube's by Bobby Shew and Allen Vizzutti who ALL advocate playing on the smallest equipment you possibly can. Of course musical tone still rules in that equation.

Unlike what is described in the Maggio Method, I blow my lips out (roll out) and anchor on my top right side slightly. This best describes what I do and for the past 50 years ... I have ALWAYS done what naturally feels best FOR ME. For years I played on a Bach 7C mouthpiece and could actually play a high F on that mouthpiece in high school marching band. Now, I know that mouthpiece was too deep and wide as was a Schilke 13a4 which I played in college achieving a high Ab for a long time. I can now play a pedal C to a relatively loud double C when I am being consistent with my daily practice at 58 years old.

I never had any private trumpet teacher as there were no proficient teachers around who could play themselves. My three high school band directors all played trumpet and none could exceed a high C and none knew what they were doing in terms of physically playing correctly. The college professor at my first university (Troy State University) only taught Music Majors and the college professor at my second university (Georgia Southern University) was an orchestral type player and just played terribly. So, I continued to "teach myself" by trying different things etc.

YouTube can be a very very valuable tool as there are so many helpful videos on there to watch. As Brian MacDonald told me ... check out differing views and see what works for YOU. Keep what works for YOU and dismiss the rest. Watch the YouTube Video with Jim Manley, Brian MacDonald and Kevin as they discuss range and air compression. It's interesting banter.

Sorry so winded.
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Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece