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MF Fan
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 Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:42 am Post subject: |
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It's plain to see how he acquired the reputation he has as a guru of all things trumpet. He's a rare breed: A great player AND teacher.
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MF Fan
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Last edited by MF Fan on Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | The arch does help in many cases. And there is a valid reason why. It has nothing to do with physics. |
I'm curious to hear what you think happens that assists tone production/range that has nothing to do with physics.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | kalijah wrote: | | The arch does help in many cases. And there is a valid reason why. It has nothing to do with physics. |
I'm curious to hear what you think happens that assists tone production/range that has nothing to do with physics. |
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I'll jump in with my view.
The effect of tongue arch might slightly affect the 'acoustical physics' within the oral cavity - but that doesn't contribute much to overall production of the sound or the pitch.
I think the 'physiological physics' of how moving the tongue can assist (or instigate) changes to the jaw position, and the throat has a much larger effect. Some people can perform the necessary jaw/throat changes without conscious (or any) involvement of tongue manipulation, and other people get better results by consciously making tongue movements that activate beneficial jaw/throat movement.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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JVL
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| i agree with Jay, and add that these parameters affect also lips alignment and the vibration zone(s) and air directions |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:19 am Post subject: |
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A rough analogy - the specific 'physics' of a car steering wheel (its weight, shape, tilt, etc.) doesn't contribute anything to the actual moving of the front wheels. But it is the 'control mechanism'.
I think that the tongue is often used as the 'control' for the embouchure / jaw / teeth / lips , etc.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:34 am Post subject: |
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It is not something that controls parameters directly. And it certainly has nothing to do with the throat. When you engage certain embouchure muscles to ascend in pitch, the tongue moves because of the ancillary action and muscle coordination. You cannot roll out the bottom lip and not have the tongue move forward in the mouth.
When we "tension" the aperture for higher pitches, IF we use the roll-out action as part of the technique, we include those actions that require the tongue to move forward due to their anatomical link.
I can use the John Lynch method of embouchure and play some mighty high and loud pitches with the tonge comfotably down. That is because that embouchure requires very little roll-out action.
The tongue does not "compress" the air.
the tongue does not increase the air speed.
The tongue does not "direct" the air (the air does not require "directing").
The prevailing myths are simply "trumpetisms" perpetually passed on by players and teachers.
If it helps. Do it. End of discussion. Stop with the fake mechanics. |
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Matthew Anklan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | Some people can perform the necessary jaw/throat changes without conscious (or any) involvement of tongue manipulation, and other people get better results by consciously making tongue movements that activate beneficial jaw/throat movement. Jay |
Anyone who claims to think about this stuff when they play music is either a liar or a terrible musician.
Do you think about your tongue when you speak? Do you think about your tongue when you whistle? NO! And it should be the same when we play the trumpet.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Exactly right, Matthew. |
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | When you engage certain embouchure muscles to ascend in pitch, the tongue moves because of the ancillary action and muscle coordination.
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To be clear, this is just a hypothesis without any strong experimental confirming evidence that I know of.
| kalijah wrote: |
The tongue does not "compress" the air.
the tongue does not increase the air speed.
The tongue does not "direct" the air (the air does not require "directing").
The prevailing myths are simply "trumpetisms" perpetually passed on by players and teachers.
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I think "myth" is a little strong, there is as of yet no experimental confirmation either way. Here is what an expert in wind instrument acoustics told me: "However, we are reluctant to dismiss out of hand what teachers say about 'air speed'." In other words, it probably is correct to dismiss "air speed" as a factor, but the nails are not in the coffin yet!
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Actually, you can easily dismiss claims players make based on known mechanics. In the case of an aperture, air speed through an aperture is not dependent on the size of the aperture but yet the air pressure difference on each side. The prevailing myth is that the size alone influences air speed. It doesn't. It is a scientific fact.
Also, to show that the tongue does NOT compress the air can easily be proven based on what is know physical law.
Flow velocity can vary WIDELY throughout a system. In any case. Any attempt to "increase" flow velocity by narrowing the supply path will introduce viscous losses. This will reduce the flow AND will reduce the air pressure bearing on the aperture. Thereby reducing the air velocity through the aperture. Regardless of its size.
Can easily be shown to be true with a flexible air hose with an aperture opening which is supplied with a constant pressure.
Not likely to be somehow different for the mechanics of brass playing. |
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JVL
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Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew Anklan wrote: | | JayKosta wrote: | | Some people can perform the necessary jaw/throat changes without conscious (or any) involvement of tongue manipulation, and other people get better results by consciously making tongue movements that activate beneficial jaw/throat movement. Jay |
Anyone who claims to think about this stuff when they play music is either a liar or a terrible musician.
Do you think about your tongue when you speak? Do you think about your tongue when you whistle? NO! And it should be the same when we play the trumpet. |
When you run, there are "leg cycles" that involve many muscles, and biomecanic.
As a sprinter, during the race, i sometimes need to focus on one of the biomecanical aspects, or muscles, or part of my body (foot, hip, whatever), to stay balanced, keep the elasticity, rebound.
And yes, sometimes i pay more attention to my tongue, when i need to.
One of my trainer, 400m specialist, told me that when he started to feel pain from the lactic, he focused on his technic, to forget about the pain and trying not to lose too much coordination.
I have the feeling that this beginning of the year, there's a strange mood in TH. Not so positive nor constructive... a lot of ego, more to contradict and show one's knowledge or beliefs, rather than bringing plain useable answers (this last not adressed to Matthew Anklan, but in general).
Pace e salute |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Claiming bull**** mechanics is NOT constructive.
The "ego" is the players who have some skill (or not) who think they are somehow experts of the underlying mechanics while giving NOTHING but that.
Sorry for not being "positive" and not leading everyone in a sing- along of "kum by yah".
If players want to discuss the mechanics, then lets do so. If not, then drop it! I will be happy to. But stop with injecting the nonsense into EVERY discussion of playing.
It seems players and teachers have to dump ALL the popular phrases into the language of instruction when THEY don't have a clue what they are talking about. And yes, it CAN be detrimental to success if you take it literally. And believe me. They mean it literally. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew Anklan wrote: |
Anyone who claims to think about this stuff when they play music is either a liar or a terrible musician. ... |
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During actual 'performance' playing there shouldn't be a need to think about it because it was learned and established as an automatic reflex action to the act of playing.
Is there a way to teach students 'how to do' the mechanical actions that are needed for good playing the doesn't require them to think about it?
It might not be necessary for students to understand the 'cause and effect' issues, but if they are to learn and be able to execute necessary mechanical actions, they probably do need to at least think about them during the learning process.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Actually, you can easily dismiss claims players make based on known mechanics. |
For altissimo sax playing it has been shown by experiments that the oral cavity's natural resonance pitch (which is based on its size) is strongly correlating with the frequency coming out the horn. In other words, professional sax players are aligning the two frequencies by changing the size of their oral cavity to allow them to more easily play high notes... tongue arch!
There is much less reason to believe that the physics principles of air speed and compression are a factor, but this physics resonance principle shown to apply to sax may well apply to high brass playing.
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JVL
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | Claiming bull**** mechanics is NOT constructive.
The "ego" is the players who have some skill (or not) who think they are somehow experts of the underlying mechanics while giving NOTHING but that.
Sorry for not being "positive" and not leading everyone in a sing- along of "kum by yah".
If players want to discuss the mechanics, then lets do so. If not, then drop it! I will be happy to. But stop with injecting the nonsense into EVERY discussion of playing.
It seems players and teachers have to dump ALL the popular phrases into the language of instruction when THEY don't have a clue what they are talking about. And yes, it CAN be detrimental to success if you take it literally. And believe me. They mean it literally. |
If you consider everything or almost i wrote like BS, ok, do so.
My opinion is that we all should try, with our different approaches (and supposed we're talking/thinking the same), for instance one poster with more scientific knowledge, and other with more empirical way, to be complementary to benefit the OP, and not fight one against another.
I say the same than you about jaw/tongue/embouchure connection, maybe not with the right words nor writing, but my post was to point what, in my experience, had more efficiency for my playing. For me, things worked better when i started to IMAGINE or VISUALIZE the tongue leading the jaw, rather than not imagining it, and thinking tongue motion is secondary to jaw motion.
You know, there are different levels of reading. So are different levels of writing. Supposed the content is not false, keep in your mind that there are different ways to explain the same things, and to understand the same things.
Not the most intelligent scientists are the best teachers.
Not the best studio musicians are the best guys for concerts.
Empathy, emotion count too.
best |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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You missed the point JVL. Its the "emperical" folks who demand to be taken as litteral and "expert" on every level.
Most CANNOT or WILL NOT qualify their instruction as metaphorical. They TRULY believe their junk science and they expect everyone else to as well. If you don't then you are a heretic.
I engage in action oriented and even mental visualization techniques to teach. I surely qualify such in those cases.
I was taught once that my oral space had to be large for "oral resonance " to occur and improve the sound. I took it literally. As a result I could not allow the tongue to NATURALLY move forward as it should to ascend (in tandem with worthwhile embouchure actions). Well, I couldn't set the embouchure posture for the correct pitch. And to do so made my set up a tensed-up mess. It became an ingrained habit that was VERY difficult to break. If anyone EVER tries to tell you that "oral resonance" is a THING to be concerned about. Run away. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For altissimo sax playing it has been shown by experiments that the oral cavity's natural resonance pitch (which is based on its size) is strongly correlating with the frequency coming out the horn. In other words, professional sax players are aligning the two frequencies by changing the size of their oral cavity to allow them to more easily play high notes... tongue arch! |
Does not apply to trumpet playing. The oral space resonance for an arched tongue position is FAR higer in frequency than the pitch played. Every scholarly attempt to prove a correlation for trumpet playing has failed.
Also the downstream acoustic impedance for trumpet plus the highly resistive aperture for high notes essentially make oral resonance negligible in influence. |
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Does not apply to trumpet playing. |
To be clear, you believe it does not apply, but some scholarly experts suspect it does and have been trying to establish a connection. So far without any positive results. My point is the matter is still under contention, not a closed book.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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So they will keep trying until they "discover" the explanation that supports their preconceived conclusions, while rejecting any that doesn't?
Ancel Keys would be proud! |
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TrpPro
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Is there a way to teach students 'how to do' the mechanical actions that are needed for good playing the doesn't require them to think about it?
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Absolutely! It's called the Caruso approach. Don't Think! is the Caruso mantra.
What little I know about the Balanced Embouchure, The Chicago School and
the Bill Adam approach would seem to be fair to say that they are also, more or less, all good candidates. |
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