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random_abstract
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Joined: 16 Nov 2013
Posts: 72
Location: USA
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 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:41 pm Post subject: Mahler: Bb or C? |
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| What’s the consensus among US orchestral players, Bb or C trumpet for section (not solo) parts in Mahler symphonies? |
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Tpt_Guy
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Joined: 16 Jul 2004
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Location: Sacramento, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Most professional US orchestras (by a wide margin) use C trumpets for the vast majority of the rep, including Mahler.
That said, this article by Jay Friedman addresses this point in the second to last paragraph.
http://jayfriedman.net/articles/trompete_
The following is excerpted from the article, but the entire article is a good read.
| Quote: | | I want to spend a few moments talking about trumpets and world-wide trends. C trumpets seem to be gaining wide acceptance throughout the world. The C trumpet is probably the most useful, all-around instrument today. My question is, is it right for everything in the symphonic literature? That is a complicated question. Is there a certain portion of the repertoire that would be better served on a Bb trumpet? Perhaps! It probably depends on the type of sound natural to each player. In my experience few people have a broad enough sound on a C trumpet to play some of the larger F trumpet parts. I don't necessarily mean a Mahler symphony. Something like the Schumann Rhenish symphony or Brahms 3rd and 4th symphonies might sound more idiomatic on a Bb trumpet with a larger mouthpiece. Some of the Bruckner symphonies could benefit from a wider, mellower sound. Just what does "trumpet in F" mean? Is it just a transposition? Or, did the composer have a certain sound in mind? Certainly Mahler did, seeing that the trumpet parts alternate without regard to register between F and Bb. Strauss used transpositions to avoid writing accidentals for trumpets and horns, which was the classical tradition. But, Tchaikovsky? He was anything but a classicist. Did he have a different sound in mind other than Bb or C? Why is the 4th Symphony in F, the 5th in A and the 6th in Bb? Not all of those movements are in the same keys as the trumpet transposition. The point of this being, I think we need more variety in the sound we produce, hopefully to more closely fulfill the composer's intentions. |
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Trompette111
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Joined: 19 Mar 2019
Posts: 41
Location: Germany/UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| In Germany, where I am doing my study, one would use a rotary trumpet always for Mahler. This happens too in US sometimes I think? |
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ayryq
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Joined: 16 Feb 2019
Posts: 354
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:33 am Post subject: |
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https://cso.org/about/resources/cso-auditions/
"The CSO trumpet section uses C rotary valve trumpets on Beethoven, Brahms, and Bruckner. Rotaries are required on this repertoire."
So presumably not for Mahler (which is included in the repertoire list).
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mcgee
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Joined: 16 May 2015
Posts: 10
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:25 am Post subject: |
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We're working on the 7th now. The 2nd and 3rd parts in some passages go down below concert F#, so it's necessary to play those sections on Bb.
One passage goes down to a low Eb -- Hm ... pedal tone, or pull out some slides?
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Tom McGee
South Orange, NJ
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MalinTrumpet
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Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 545
Location: Delray Beach, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:41 am Post subject: Mahler |
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Hey Tom:
A few years before I left NYC the London Symphony played 2 concerts at the formerly called Avery Fisher Hall. The first night Philip Cobb played the entire 7th on a Bb (including the piccolo solo in the last movement). The night after he played the entire Mahler #3 on a Bb. A “visiting “ principal played the Posthorn solo on a Bb flugelhorn. (Hey, that’s what it says in the part!)
I know, those guys are not human but it was perfect and gorgeous.
Regards from Florida to all my friends,
Larry[/list] |
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Andy Del
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Trompette111 wrote: | | In Germany, where I am doing my study, one would use a rotary trumpet always for Mahler. This happens too in US sometimes I think? |
In Mahler's time, in Vienna, piston trumpets were played. The opera company he directed and conducted - and presumably had some control over who played in the orchestra - used piston trumpets. That's essentially what he wrote his symphonies for...
Meanwhile, over in Italy in the 19th century, rotary trumpets were quite commonly used.
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tanda
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Can’t remember where I found it but I’m sure someone did the research and discovered that Mahler 5 was premiered by a section that played piston C trumpets. In Germany or Austria I believe.
Also, isn’t the “tradition” of US orchestras using rotaries rooted in simple economics? That they would get paid doubling to use rotaries?
In my experience too many conductors listen with their eyes anyway. Instrument choice should really be up to the players anyway. |
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