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gdghorn Regular Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 19
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 7:33 am Post subject: "Peel-off" technique for embouchure placement |
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Let me first state that I do not imply this method of mouthpiece/embouchure formation works for everyone. I am saying that it has made my life easier in just a few days.
Last fall of 2018 I started lip buzzing for the first time ever. I struggled with it and was lucky to get a second line G buzz out. Pedal C no problem. Through my own experimentation I found that I could pull off the mouthpiece while playing that second line G and my lips would buzz that pitch. I couldn't however, get it to happen without pulling off.
My upper lip is pretty large and it hangs over my bottom lip. I could see why lip buzzing alone was hard to do for me.
Then I saw Charlie Porter's video on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQDIWMu6Zuc
He said he got it from Vince DiMartino. So I tried it for a couple days every time I picked up my horn. After 3 days I'm convinced it's the right setup for me.
The main difference I can see (as opposed to hear) is that my cheeks above my corners move up when my lips buzz (based on the peel-off setup). You know that look. Maurice Andre, Javier Gonzales...what looks like a smile, but isn't a smile embouchure. I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack about that, but I'm not advocating a smile embouchure....please. Don't go there.
I'm talking about the same look I see when Javier plays. Everyone is different (I'll repeat). Jaw bone, musculature, teeth, etc...there are so many variables.
The biggest improvements I'm finding is that it's so much less effort to play notes. The efficiency is advanced. I can play Clarke second study without constantly thinking and adjusting my jaw to make it happen. Just blow and it works. Intervals are much easier. Octave slurs are easier. Lip slurs are faster than ever before. Range is related, but this is no instant range method.
I think doing the peel-off forces my lips to get aligned better for trumpet playing, and the result is my jaw is in a better position too. You often hear lead trumpet players talk about getting your lower jaw out. I couldn't make that happen. This simple "check" puts my lips and jaw in the most efficient alignment for me. The movement of my cheek muscles hold my jaw there.
For me...
Hope this helps someone. I welcome the discussion. |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2478 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:03 am Post subject: |
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I have had exactly the same experience as you this week, having come upon this concept via several sources. It seems rooted in Stamp’s pedagogy.
Btw the lip overlap and jaw thing... that’s really big for me. I have also been working for the past 6+ years on eliminating my low register break (around bottom C) and this seems like it might be one of the last pieces in the puzzle. I have figured out how to eliminate this break but it takes some conscious effort and on some days a healthy amount of perseverance. This seems to help me take care of everything now! I have actually just spent 2 hours playing Clarke’s in the staff to bottom F, and back up to the extent of my range with no hint of reset and minimal movement! It has made my pedal tone register feel like my normal register and open pedals just happen without having to ‘find’ them.
If you haven’t seen the Jon Lewis video, he discusses concepts like this:
https://youtu.be/5oP08Fh5L9E
Thanks for sharing your experience. Surprising how similar to mine it is.
Best,
Mike _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I’m glad you have had success with this!!
I recently made a post about this video. I, like you, cannot lip buzz anything high. I struggle for a low C. Middle G is no chance. I feel like this peel off thing could be the answer for me; I feel like I am using the mouthpiece as a “crutch.” I am having range and endurance struggles and I have little control or consistency in my playing.
But I can’t do the technique. My embouchure collapses as soon as I take the mouthpiece off my chops.
What can I do?? I am very jealous of your experience! |
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bhornFree Regular Member
Joined: 13 May 2019 Posts: 27
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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So, I'm curious...are folks able to make this "peel off" deal work with pedal tones? Or just doing this in the middle register helps the extremes? |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2478 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say Mr Porter is a better person to ask about this technique.
My experience of this is - no buzz if there isn't enough chop support that is relaxed and loose where it vibrates and firm and supportive where it doesn't. Absolutely not pinched.
Too firm/over-blowing/pressure (the triune of fail) will result in no buzz.
I'm not saying this is for everyone, but it is helping me.
I think Mr Porter is quite good at replying to his YT comments, so perhaps post there? I would be keen to read his responses.
Best,
Mike _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: "Peel-off" technique for embouchure placement |
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gdghorn wrote: | I think doing the peel-off forces my lips to get aligned better for trumpet playing, and the result is my jaw is in a better position too. |
Not clear how this would be in that how the tissue is trapped and formed and what the teeth and mouth cavity are doing when playing is vastly different than when buzzing without the mouthpiece.
Can you elaborate on how you feel it forces your lips to be aligned better for actually playing? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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pepperdean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 650 Location: Johnson City, Texas
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Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I think this type of exercise can be very useful, having used it personally and with many students.
About forty years ago, several random thoughts set me off in this direction. First, there were some exercises that Carmine Caruso had me doing where I would "play" a chromatic scale fragment three ways: free buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing, and playing the horn without using the valves. There was, also, a thought from Lynn Nicholson about building a buzz that couldn't be defeated. The third was another Carmine suggestion that free buzzing should begin with the horn and be followed by playing on the horn.
I was playing a lot of lead so this idea appealed to me. I devised several exercises that began with a played note, peeling off to a free buzz and walking back into a played note. I used this for myself and my students for many years with great success.
Now, at my somewhat advanced age, I'm working on a comeback from some nerve damage caused by a bout of the shingles. It's been going okay but this video reminded me of this approach. I've again adapted this idea into an addition to my daily work and it's already showing very positive results.
I don't begin to suggest that this is great for everyone and I don't suggest free buzzing or mouthpiece buzzing is the same as playing the horn, however, I do feel that a "little" bit of this can help pul the embouchure forward and give the lower lip support better alignment and strength for many.
It is important to begin in the low register where the corners can be firm and the center of the chops remain relaxed. Going too high and pinching the center is counter-productive. Just like too many helpful techniques, a goes a long way.
Try it; you might like it.
Alan |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Huh. Well, I tried it and I could do it just fine. I guess that's a good sign???
I personally don't like mouthpiece buzzing - I have found that for me it introduces lots of tension into my setup and ruins my endurance - but I can certainly do it if I need to.
I think that this "peel-off" exercise can be a good diagnostic tool to check, as Mr. Porter and the OP both suggest, if you're using mouthpiece pressure as a crutch to keep your embouchure together. I'm not totally convinced it has a lot of utility outside of that. But I would be interested to try it after a long practice session to see if I'm maintaining that free and easy but still muscularly supported/energized and engaged embouchure. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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elliott johnston New Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2017 Posts: 5 Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:56 pm Post subject: Interesting |
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All of these techniques are interesting. I use simpler approaches but am always excited to learn new ways. _________________ Elliott Johnston |
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rfuccio New Member
Joined: 28 May 2019 Posts: 5 Location: 94087 or 44074
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Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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To my understanding, this comes from the Stamp method of forming an embouchure and then bringing the horn to it. Heard of this from Richard Roper who heard it from Mario Guarneri. Roy Poper also says a similar thing. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:28 am Post subject: |
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rfuccio wrote: | To my understanding, this comes from the Stamp method of forming an embouchure and then bringing the horn to it. Heard of this from Richard Roper who heard it from Mario Guarneri. Roy Poper also says a similar thing. |
This doesn't agree with my understanding. I studied with a major Stamp student and he consistently said that the free buzz will always be at a different, lower pitch in the absence of a horn.
This post and some of the comments makes me think more of what I've heard about the Quinque system. The one guy who I know who employs it can buzz the same pitch independent of the presence of a horn, leadpipe, or any size or shaped horn. He is the only person I've ever seen who could pick up any horn, even a broken one and play the Haydn without pressing valves. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | rfuccio wrote: | To my understanding, this comes from the Stamp method of forming an embouchure and then bringing the horn to it. Heard of this from Richard Roper who heard it from Mario Guarneri. Roy Poper also says a similar thing. |
This doesn't agree with my understanding. I studied with a major Stamp student and he consistently said that the free buzz will always be at a different, lower pitch in the absence of a horn. |
I studied for a long time with a guy that studied with Gordon, Stamp and Boyde Hood earlier in his career. We did both free-buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing at various points during that time. Never anything about the pitch being the same. It's been a while, so I wouldn't swear to it, but I'm fairly sure he said it would actually be an octave lower off the horn. Don't know if that was meant to be literally true or an approximation, but did do some exercises free buzzing then moving to the mouthpiece and having the pitch jump upward, usually roughly an octave when it came out the bell without changing the buzz.
Thinking about this more, it was buzzing on the mouthpiece, then sliding the mouthpiece into the leadpipe while keeping the sound going when the pitch went up. Black magic? Voodoo? I don't know.
Your mileage may vary. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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pepperdean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 650 Location: Johnson City, Texas
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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I finally watched the Jon Lewis video and had a couple of additional thoughts. I feel the videos from Charlie Porter and Jon Lewis are not related in their application aside from the fact the mouthpiece is moving on and off the chops. I've already stated that Charlie Porter's peeling off, carefully done to avoid pinching, can help students firm corners and focus the chops forward.
I also believe that the relationship between free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing would sound the free buzz one octave lower if the lips were appropriately relaxed and supple.
Really, two different exercises with two different goals. Both have a lot of merit for some students.
Alan |
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