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Standing on the cusp of a major increase in range.


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Lionel
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:11 am    Post subject: Standing on the cusp of a major increase in range. Reply with quote

It's like steadying myself before a precipice. Mind you that for some approximately 44 years previously I have been playing some pretty good high notes. That's a long time. So what's different about these recent times? Just for starters I'm no longer stuck on G above high C but can often soar close to another octave up.

Had largely cut back on my practicing this week. This after an alarming episode of swollen, stiff lips. Been happening over a period extending on back almost three weeks prior. This as being described in my recent other "overtraining" topic.

I've really been practicing too much for my own good. Had I been using a more balanced "diet" of practice I might already have conquered the climb earlier. Or maybe my overtrained embouchure was just camouflaging the fantastic improvement. Obscuring the happy development under a pair of temporarily inflexible lips.

Here's how I know that I've finally come around. Yesterday was a planned very light practice session as the one prior had been kinda heavy. I had gone a little overboard on Wednesday so didn't want to push it yesterday.

A litrle explanation is in order. Since just 20 months ago I've been playing on a radically different and new embouchure. It closely resembles the Stevens System albeit with one wigged out feature. Despite it offering much more range it really was weak. This due to a whole set of new muscles being used in this major embouchure change.. It has felt like I've been dropped back in time to the fourth grade some 44 years ago. Despite my greatly increased practice room range? These notes would swiftly vanish as the endurance of any "beginner" is always weak. In order to develop my new system? I've needed to start right from the bottom all over again. Taking on 2nd and 3rd cornet parts in community band. Groups where I had formerly been the ringer in. And forget about playing big band lead. As my big sound was gone. When blowing a good lead trumpet it isn't enough just to have range and endurance. A big sound from the tuning note on up to high C is most important. And I sure as heck didn't have that on my new embouchure either.

However last Wednesday produced exciting developments. I had power on my high F and the middle register was suddenly roaring. Like a lion about to jump from his cage. Was able to blow numerous phrases at decent volume up to and above double C. Again I had to force myself to set the horn down. Before pushing my chops back into an overtrained condition.

So yesterday was kinda like "a pinch me to check if I'm only dreaming" type if day. In fact it still is now today too. Wanted to just finish a nice, easy warm up. Then blow one set of my self designed range arpeggios. Then put the horn down. As my first few notes came out I realized that I'd kinda over done it the day before on Wed. So I completed just one set of arpeggios up to high G.

"My goodness" I thought, "the middle register is still roaring".

It was much easier to produce a big sound! Granted it was a tad bit edgy but nothing that a little polishing through practice won't soon cure. I decide that caution is still advised and soon abbreviate the practice session even earlier. As I feel so stiff in the chops from day before.

Meanwhile this greater volume or "roar" in my tone is extending into the upper register. I'm pounding high C, D and even E again! I pound one more high F then complete the series on high G. Holding the note with at least a commanding forte tone like my old embouchure once did except now I'm playing the note easily.

After sustaining the high G a few seconds I cap it by going up a perfect 4th higher. To a NICE double C! I have never played one that easily or as well before in my whole life of 64 years.

It was that middle register "growl" which indicated that my chops are finally coming around. That a change has finally occurred in my chops. They no longer need to "grab the mouthpiece in a "death grip".

Over the years I've talked to at least a couple of cats who once stood on the same precipice as I do now. In each case he had learned to just "let go"! of certain muscles in his chops. Then within days he had gone from being mere weak trumpet player to someone with a most impressive extreme upper register and big sound.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know how many are following your progress but every time someone asks for help with range they should read your progress reports. You well illustrate how it’s done—with thoughtful, focused, disciplined practice. Or as Anders Ericsson calls it, deliberate practice. It’s the overall approach to practice that leads to success, not so much an specific wonder technique.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
I don’t know how many are following your progress but every time someone asks for help with range they should read your progress reports.


And that will help?
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel,
I am glad to hear that your embouchure change is working out for you.

I made a similar change about 4 year ago in order to be able to play lead parts above a high D. I was never able to get a good sound or decent flexibility with this embouchure for notes below a high C. Even after working at it for a few years.

Now I do a subtle embouchure shift around C or D in order to open up the upper register.

Steve
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:
... I made a similar change about 4 year ago in order to be able to play lead parts above a high D. I was never able to get a good sound or decent flexibility with this embouchure for notes below a high C. Even after working at it for a few years.

Now I do a subtle embouchure shift around C or D in order to open up the upper register.

Steve

-----------------------------
What is this 'similar change' that you made? Are you using an embouchure technique / method that is documented somewhere? Or, can you explain it to us yourself?

Jay
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay,
Here is my story.

I started playing trumpet when I was 12. By my junior year in High School my range topped out at the D above high C. I could occasionally squeak out higher notes, maybe up to an F. But it was not a reliable thing.

I tried all of the conventional wisdom, arpeggios, exercises, etc. that people recommended to expand your upper register over the years, but to no avail. The D was still the limit.

Fast forward 43 years. I decided to really figure out what it took to get a solid range at least up to the G above high C. So I started doing a lot of experimenting.

The first thing I worked on was the Maggio System. Back in High School my band director had given me the book and I tried it then but I decided to give it another shot. Again, I didn't get the expansion of range that I was hoping for.

I read posts here by many people, but particularly John Mohan, about using tongue arch to improve range. By trying this I discovered that it didn't matter at all what I did with my tongue. I could arch it forward, I could pull it back, I could stick it out to my cheeks on either side, I could press the front portion up against the roof on my mouth. I made absolutely no difference on my range.

I tried the Callett approach, kind of using the tongue as the bottom portion of the embochure, to my surprise this actually worked to be able to play higher notes. but they sounded terrible and it was very difficult to articulate. I stuck with this apporach for a while hoping that I could improve the tone quality but it didn't work out.

There were probably a few other things I tried that I don't recall at the moment.

Somehow I discovered the Roy Roman videos online and I got the Roy Stevens book "Embochure Self-Analysis". This was the method that finally did the trick for me. Moving my jaw forward and using my bottom lip in slightly different way immediately opened up the upper register. practically over night I gained and octave and a third on my range. And the notes came out amazingly easily.

So it took me about 3 years from when I started until I figured out how to play high notes this way. It has since been 4 years that I have been using this method.

There have of course been hurdles to applying this method. The jaw-forward thing does not come naturally to me, I normally have a slight underbite, so I had to really practice this a lot to make it feel natural. And in the heat of battle, e.g. at a gig, it is still too easy to fall into 45 years of bad habits and apply too much arm pressure.

And, as i mentioned above, This embochure does not really work well for me below a high C. But man, it really works well above that point.

Steve
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:
...
and I got the Roy Stevens book "Embochure Self-Analysis". This was the method that finally did the trick for me. Moving my jaw forward and using my bottom lip in slightly different way immediately opened up the upper register. practically over night I gained and octave and a third on my range. And the notes came out amazingly easily.
...

-----------------------------------
Steve, thanks for the info - I also use the ideas from the Stevens book.
When you say "using my bottom lip in slightly different way", can you explain what you physically do, or what you're trying to accomplish with your bottom lip.

Jay
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay,
I spent some time looking at myself in the mirror to best describe what I do.
It looks like I am pulling my corners back and up a little bit to tighten my lower lip. It's a pretty subtle movement, not like a big smile type move. It doesn't feel like it is tightening my top lip, only the bottom.

And it's definitely not the frowny face kind of move that you're supposed to use for the Costello method.

Steve
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, thanks for your explanation.

I believe 'tiny changes' (starting from a good basic embouchure foundation) make a big difference in producing high notes. And likely each person has their own specific 'changes' that work for them.

Jay
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Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I do say so myself there's an interesting reason why my experience may be helpful. Even especially so. As I'm not a beginner but was a well experienced and pretty good lead player prior to my injury last summer. So this is the second time that I've learned to play high notes.

The first time was back in 1971 or so. When I was about 16 or so. I got a copy of the Maggio Brass system. Was the Carelton Macbeth edition. So I followed the advice as written and made some minor changes to the way I buzzed. Previously I had probably played with the horn sticking close to "straight out" from my face. Now according to Maggio I was "buzzing down". In fact the angle of my trumpet coming off my face was averaging about "4 o'clock" to "4:30" off my face. Previously it had been between 3:00 to 3:30.

Somehow the change to a lower angle made the transition up to high C much easier. I could hit the C and D solidly almost immediately. Later the Maggio pedal tones increased the vibrancy of my chops. Especially in the inner gum area on my upper lip. Soon after practicing the pedal tone exercises the high F snd G suddenly came out. "Big as a house" as they say. It was sn exhilarating time. There was just one small problem with what I was doing. That is?

Answer: most significantly receded jaw trumpet players have some serious kind of range limitation. At that time however I wasn't going to notice anything like this. Being just happy as heck that I had discovered any high notes at all.

And today I'm going through a similar transition as from way back when. Again, if I may be permitted the courtesy to repeat myself. This experience is an unusual one which I feel that many could profit from. As I'm already a well experienced lead player but also one who had completely lost his chops. So as I learn a completely new "Forward Jaw Embouchure" positioning I can illustrate the changes my chops are going through. I'm like a scientist who's just received his first microscope.

And in the end probably my most valuable knowledge has been how to deal with the mental approach to this "game". The psychology of athletic conditioning. As building an embouchure is among one of the trickiest "athletic endeavors" thst there is. Even more involved (to me anyway) than the golf swing and grip. Thus the reason I'm reading that bio on Arnold Palmer which I put a post on in the Lounge. The old man really knew the heavy psychological STRESS of golf. I have gained so much from his observations. Particularly as it pertains to overtraining.
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"It is surprising how skilled you can become on a very limited (trumpet) embouchure and how many years you can play on that and then how difficult it is to correct that once you find that it is tremendously limited". Bill Moriarty, 2005
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
If I do say so myself there's an interesting reason why my experience may be helpful.
...
So as I learn a completely new "Forward Jaw Embouchure" positioning ....

---------------------------------------------------
Are there other 'technical aspects' you have found helpful?

The 'angle off the face' determination must consider the alignment of the upper and lower teeth. The teeth form the base plane of the angle, not the overall head/face position.

Jay
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Lionel wrote:
If I do say so myself there's an interesting reason why my experience may be helpful.
...
So as I learn a completely new "Forward Jaw Embouchure" positioning ....

---------------------------------------------------
Are there other 'technical aspects' you have found helpful?

The 'angle off the face' determination must consider the alignment of the upper and lower teeth. The teeth form the base plane of the angle, not the overall head/face position.

Jay


True. I've noticed this myself as well Jay. There's a really fine trumpet player in my area who plays with a very downward angle. However this is not due to a receded jaw but because his upper front teeth curl significantly inwards. The guy fooled me for many years. As I had formerly and incorrectly classified him as a typical receded jaw player. Even though his tone is much more characteristic of the "Stevens system" or forward jaw setting. Well in fact he is a "Stevens system" type of player.

By the way, thank you for your inquiry Jay.

The "technical aspects" Ive found helpful would need be defined only in relation to some of the exercises and physical adjustments I've needed to do in order to develop this new embouchure. Only in the realm of development and practice. Although I'm improving by leaps and bounds? I don't quite feel comfortable posting a bunch of sound clips out there. Although I have sent a couple here and there that demonstrate some arpeggio in the top end. These were only sound files recorded off my cellphone. I still don't know how to put them into viewable youtube files.

The fact is that embouchure change was a huge turn in my "career"
for me. Probably the biggest challenge of my life next to becoming a father. I've had to really work at avoiding the condition of overtraining. This because I was once a powerful lead player. However my new embouchure is like a small tree growing where a great oak once towered but has fallen to the ground. Then cut into lengths, and carted away.

Instead this "new tree" is but a sapling. Thus I must take great care to avoid recklessness. As this really slows my progress.

Another helpful matter is my use of pedal tones. Which is very strange. In as much as Roy Stevens always cautioned his students against practicing pedals. And while I can think of a couple ways that pedal tones just might be wrong on some players? Ive found them to be remarkably helpful. Esp at getting my chops warmed up.
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"It is surprising how skilled you can become on a very limited (trumpet) embouchure and how many years you can play on that and then how difficult it is to correct that once you find that it is tremendously limited". Bill Moriarty, 2005
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Bulgakov
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
I don’t know how many are following your progress but every time someone asks for help with range they should read your progress reports. You well illustrate how it’s done—with thoughtful, focused, disciplined practice. Or as Anders Ericsson calls it, deliberate practice. It’s the overall approach to practice that leads to success, not so much an specific wonder technique.


Yes.

Lionel's post is wonderful for newer players like me. I'm a middle-aged guy who took up the trumpet a few years ago and just play in community groups. But having a post like this from an experienced player going though a new learning process is invaluable. It is a very good reminder about how to practice and how to develop, even if I am far from the level of most players on this forum.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bulgakov wrote:
INTJ wrote:
I don’t know how many are following your progress but every time someone asks for help with range they should read your progress reports. You well illustrate how it’s done—with thoughtful, focused, disciplined practice. Or as Anders Ericsson calls it, deliberate practice. It’s the overall approach to practice that leads to success, not so much an specific wonder technique.


Yes.

Lionel's post is wonderful for newer players like me. I'm a middle-aged guy who took up the trumpet a few years ago and just play in community groups. But having a post like this from an experienced player going though a new learning process is invaluable. It is a very good reminder about how to practice and how to develop, even if I am far from the level of most players on this forum.


I hate to agree with such flattering remarks fellas. But thanks. Hey here's the real paradox. Kinda funny in retrospect but not when I was going through the process.

Look, I started this thread because it really seemed like things were going to turn around. I mean here I was improving by leaps and bounds. Hitting solid Fs above Double C. That and improving my overall technique. Getting "promoted" from 3rd cornet to 2nd and even playing some 1st parts. It was a positive experience and all after a time of substantial humiliation. These were after all bands that I'd formerly been kind of the "ringer" in. Prior to absolutely losing my chops that is.

Trust me fellows. Please believe me. You DON'T want to lose your chops. Not after 54 years of lead playing. Not after ten. I certainly didn't want this to happen but iindeed it did. Anyway so here I was expecting the next higher plane of development. Heck this was the reason for producing this very topic! And then what happened?

I fell into a damned near six week long DEEP Valley. Hell man I played far better last May! Damn it anyway. What is wrong with me? I'm a veteran. I teach people they don't teach me.

"THIS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPENING TO ME"!!!

No I wasnt even close to suicide. If I was I'd have done it last year when my old system collapsed. But it was a more than month long Hell. Even taking time off the horn wasn't helping much. About the only positive thing happening musically is that the "Kid" I'm teaching lead to is becoming a beast. Lol. He went from a weak high C to good G above since I began teaching him. I was grateful for that. But as a chapter in a famous alcohol rehab book is titled,

"Physician Heal Thyself"

"What is wrong with my chops man"? I kept going over and over this thought in my mind. So I wrote Lynn. My childhood hero. He wrote back. Thank you Lynn. We decide I'm overtrained. Me of all people. Finally I heard my college applied trumpet prof. Speaking to me from the grave,. Same words of wisdom he uttered in 1975

"Lionel I teach trumpet playwrs. Not screech players. You are desperately lacking in fundamentals. All that you can do is blow high notes. And today you've burned your lip out so bad that you can't even do that. Your bottom end is weak. Yet if you ever stopped played the high notes so much and straightened out your WHOLE SYSTEM? You'd soon find yourself blowing double Cs snd better".

Harsh words. I was a young man then. But I resolved to see if the old man really was right. And so went to work on my fundamentals. In fact it really wasn't until after I got out on the road playing five nights/week that I developed solid fundamentals in the middle and lower register. The old man was at least half right. My fundamentals did kinda suck. His only mistake was in not understanding the high G cut-off point. I had a bad one.

A high G cut-off is such a tease. A nuisance. Yet with a G in the bag? You can play lead! You'll get gigs. Not great gigs maybe but do the best you can. Yet to a real trumpet fanatic? A high G cut-off point is awful. You can see the promised labd but you'll never get there.

My problem today turned out to be both obvious and yet tricky. It put together two conditions you'll not often see.

1. A once powerful lead player. Solid big sound. But lost all his chops. Gone...

2. Same guy on a brand new "virgin" embouchure. Like he's gone back to fourth grade in Maryland once again, Sept 1964. Only advantage I have now was knowing the fingerings and being able to read music. Not much more. Except? Well a "beginner" whose weak chops and yet who can often squeal out unlimited range.

These two factors were like a seasoned jockey being taken off his five year old thoroughbred. Then put on a year and a half old colt. You can't expect Seattle Slew results from a year and a half colt! Can't happen. But I want more production. In fact my overtrained condition resulted from these two factors.

A regular teacher would have caught it sooner.

"Quit playing the damned high notes will ya? Then focus on your lower register. Your tone stinks down there anyway"

So I've declared myself out of my slump. As for "standing on the cusp" of some great improvement? Well yes it is here but not in the form I expected. The significant improvement is that I now understand the importance of developing a strong middle and lower register to my new embouchure. You can't hang a swing off the branches of a year old sapling. Well you could but only a parakeet could use it to swing on. It isn't until the tree grows fat in the trunk and branches that it can be expected to support a nice backyard swing.

"The Kid" has the opposite problem I have. He needs inspiration to develop high notes. This is good in a way. As he isn't flippin OBSESSED with the upper register. Not like I was. He'll likely not develop bruised, swollen chops. Never spend weeks in a state of constant overtrained embouchure. But I'll tell ya one thing. Not tryin to brag. I wish to heaven that back in 1970 I had a mentor like the one that he has...
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But it has nothing to do with flattery. Simply an observation that all good development can only come with significant amounts of deliberate practice, and that is what you are illustrating.

As for the specifics a technique, they aren't so important. Each of us has to find our own way and we do that through deliberate practice.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
But it has nothing to do with flattery. Simply an observation that all good development can only come with significant amounts of deliberate practice, and that is what you are illustrating.

As for the specifics a technique, they aren't so important. Each of us has to find our own way and we do that through deliberate practice.


Basically true. However the kind of range limitation that I endurred for close to fifty years is not something that responds completely to even intelligent and applied practice. All that happened to me was that the range that I did have became more accurate and musical. The more I worked on it that is... Obviously this is a positive thing. However so long as I continued under that particular chop setting? (a very well grooved embouchure at that too I might add)? I simply wasn't going to blow any notes above the High G on a regular basis. Also too my notes around high E to G would always remain hard to blow. Definitely more useful than those of my peers who remained stuck at lower notes but at the same time still a pain. I wanted the full range of the instrument. So I felt very limited.

This the reason why I "doubled down" on my new chop setting shortly after the injury of Aug 2019 destroyed my former way of playing. Since my old way of playing had been destroyed? I had only one remaining alternative: to work on my new chop setting. Which while very inexperienced at least showed the promise of eventually delivering extreme range.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
...
This the reason why I "doubled down" on my new chop setting shortly after the injury ...

-------------------------------
Can you list the main 'big differences' (no need to go into detail about small personal 'fit' adjustments) between your old and new embouchure? And, do you use any new equipment that was necessary with the new embouchure?

Jay
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
INTJ wrote:
But it has nothing to do with flattery. Simply an observation that all good development can only come with significant amounts of deliberate practice, and that is what you are illustrating.

As for the specifics a technique, they aren't so important. Each of us has to find our own way and we do that through deliberate practice.


Basically true. However the kind of range limitation that I endurred for close to fifty years is not something that responds completely to even intelligent and applied practice. All that happened to me was that the range that I did have became more accurate and musical. The more I worked on it that is... Obviously this is a positive thing. However so long as I continued under that particular chop setting? (a very well grooved embouchure at that too I might add)? I simply wasn't going to blow any notes above the High G on a regular basis. Also too my notes around high E to G would always remain hard to blow. Definitely more useful than those of my peers who remained stuck at lower notes but at the same time still a pain. I wanted the full range of the instrument. So I felt very limited.

This the reason why I "doubled down" on my new chop setting shortly after the injury of Aug 2019 destroyed my former way of playing. Since my old way of playing had been destroyed? I had only one remaining alternative: to work on my new chop setting. Which while very inexperienced at least showed the promise of eventually delivering extreme range.


The kind of range issue you experienced for 50 years can ONLY be overcome by the kind of deliberate practice you are doing now. What likely happened is you developed a reliable G, and much more important than stretching to DHC is have endurance, style, reading skills, etc. So the focus of your deliberate practice became things other than range.

I am in a difficult place endurance wise. I can play lead on Basie type stuff for about an hour or a little longer. I need twice that endurance and I haven't figured it out yet. I keep applying deliberate practice but am not there yet. One day I will figure it out....
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ,
Down below is a helpful hint to gain more endurance on lead. Remember please that I'm drawing on my experience as a lead player from BEFORE that injury which permanently ruined my former embouchure. The following trick worked great. Yet llike anything else it requires patience. That and maybe a good understand of mouthpiece for high notes. I'm sure that you're most capable. Hope that it works well if you try ut. Good luck!

One of my most demanding gigs was a TOP (tower of power) type cover band. Just our rehearsals alone were hard enough to survive. I had the chops but three sets of that stuff is V demanding. It took a lot out of me. So I decided to make graduated changes in the mouthpiece I used. These changes were all shallower. Until that is I could get the mouthpiece to do as much of the work for me as possible. Here's what I did.

I was always using a medium, slightly shallow piece for lead playing. Usually with a more open throat. Instead of the typical standard #28 throat however I used a #26. To mitigate some of the edginess produced in shallower pieces. I also possessed a second mouthpiece which was a little bit shallower. But otherwise exactly the same as my primary piece.

I just had one problem with this secondary mouthpiece. It was just a hair too small for me to work with and achieve a comfortable gig. It's important here to observe that the shallowness was just a tad too much. Being only very slightly past the borderline of what I could play and still feel comfortable.

So I'd play on my original or "main" mouthpiece until I got very tired. Then switch over to the slightly shallower piece! This is the crucial part of this technique so take note.

The reason why the shallower mouthpiece wasnt working so well at first was because I needed more EXPERIENCE on it. But the beauty of only using the shallower piece when my embouchure became tired is because when our chops get fatigued it's MUCH EASIER FOR THEM TO ACCEPT A SHALLOWER PIECE!!

On the next gig or rehearsal I'd shift over to the shallower, new piece earlier in the night. The next gig even earlier. Until I could start the whole gig on the new piece. I'd then leave the old mouthpiece among my gear but otherwise I had shed it like a snake sheds it's skin.

The only difference between the two mouthpieces was that the new or second one was slighly shallower than before. So now that I was sdjusted to a slightly shallower piece and using it as my main? I got ready to move to a piece slightly shallower than the one I'd recently changed to. And like the shsmpoo botlle says,

"Rinse & Repeat".

The effect was fantastic. Here's the kind of progress I made. On the original, slightly shallower than medium piece I could play one full set of TOP music easily but struggle through the next two. And by the third set often taking stuff down an octave.

After the first switch? Both my 1st and 2nd sets were easy and strong but I struggled somewhat on the third.

Coda: lastly I couldnt find a stock mouthpiece any smaller so I shifted over to a mouthpiece I'd custom made. This while very very shallow had both an open back-bore and the #23 throat. With this piece I almost never got tired. That is until my Injury forced me out of the game.

This "trick" really worked well for me. Plus it taught me much. A veritable gold mine of knowledge. Which I really needed
Wishing everyone the very best!
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"It is surprising how skilled you can become on a very limited (trumpet) embouchure and how many years you can play on that and then how difficult it is to correct that once you find that it is tremendously limited". Bill Moriarty, 2005
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INTJ
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Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1935
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel,

Thanks for that! I am on that very track as we speak. I have been using a Wedge MP around the size of a Bach 10.5D with a 25 throat. I recently tried a shallower Wedge MP with a double cup, but it was on a different rim. The arm size was too large so I am having Wedge make me that cup on my rim.

I loved how the shallower double cup played. It took less effort to get a big sound. However, because the rim diameter was too big I would quickly bottom out. My hope is this cup on my rim will give me the same benefits without the bottoming out. Regardless, like you mentioned, I need to get used to it and your idea of using it when tired might expedite the process.
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