Small diameter better for the high register?

Ximo_molina

Hi. Recently I have been talking with several friends about the diameter of the mouthpiece. Many of them comment that to work in the upper register and play lead Trumpet, using a small diameter will greatly help with the registration and endurance. I know many great trumpeters work in the high register and use quite large ring measures. I currently play with pieces 4 of Warburton or 66 of GR and it seems to work for me. My question is whether to give the opportunity and time to smaller pieces (5, 6 of Warburton or 65, 64 of GR, 41 bob reeves for example) it is risky to spend time on something you do not know if it will work ... and It is also a lot of money. What do you think?
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zaferis · Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:19 am Post subject:

It might help, it might not.

It depends on more things than you're considering.. there is nothing problematic with the size range you're in.. It's a matter of how the mouthpiece fits/responds to your embouchure, and more about dental structure than lip size/shape. Then consider your abilities.

You might find that the rim you're on is fine, but you may need to adjust the cup size/shap, throat size, flair shape, and gap. WAY too many variables to be able to limit it to the rim diameter.

And likely more about how you're playing than the mouthpiece.
Lessons might be the answer before spending money on mouthpieces.

I've presented a mouthpiece demonstration for high school aged kids that I demonstrated playing the same passages literally using a bag full of mouthpieces; one collection of various makers and sizes, another every Curry 3 (from the very deep to the very shallow). the things that change most dramatically are tone, intonation, and effort on my part.. Range did not change-I could play all the notes commonly in my range on all the mouthpieces I picked up. (minus the one crappy Indian made mouthpiece like object, and the extremely shallow Curry 3Z.)
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HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

Smaller diameter does not necessarily equate to an easier higher register. You are best off with whatever diameter fits your personal physiology. If it fits you it fits you. If it doesn't fit you it doesn't fit you. There are no miracle mouthpieces that suddenly give you more range than a mouthpiece that has been working for you. Range is a product of technique consistent with range. Range is not a product of miracle mouthpiece mechanics. Bill Watrous could play an easy trumpeter's double G (4th ledger line above the staff) on his trombone.
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John Mohan · Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:34 am Post subject:

Both answers above mine nail it.

Yes, while in theory a smaller diameter cup means a shorter section of lips vibrating which should make the upper register easier. But in the least there is a trade off in terms of sound and the ability to play low notes, especially when it comes to articulating middle range and low range notes cleanly. Some players can do this well on a small mouthpiece. Most can't.

Personally, every time I've tried to go smaller than a Reeves 43 (Purviance 5*3 and/or Bach 3C) sized cup diameter it has not worked out well. I have articulation troubles when playing on a Reeves 42C that I don't have on a 43C and when A/B testing them in front of knowledgeable players, everyone always tells me I have a bigger, better tone on the 43C.

Furthermore, when playing range exercises or high note passages, I am more likely to have trouble getting my lips to vibrate on the highest notes with the smaller 42-rimmed mouthpiece. (For reference, the 42C has an inner cup diameter that is about the same as a Bach 10-1/2C but is shallower than a 10-1/2C). There just not enough room for my lips in that smaller diameter mouthpiece.

As of last December I switched from the Reeves 43C to the Purviance 5*3. The 5*3 is the mouthpiece Bob Reeves based his 43C on. The 5*3 has virtually the same rim and same cup diameter as the 43C but is a little bit deeper. I love it! The highest notes sound just about the same on it, but the middle and upper registers sound even more gorgeous. Smaller is not necessarily better.

YMMV.

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JVL · Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:17 pm Post subject:

hello
it's not risky if you have a good embouchure and coordination, if you know what you do when playing.
Try a step smaller, and you'll see if things are better, and which things get better, which other get worse.
If you're playing a too large ID, things will get better.
If your ID was already the good one, things can only get worse or harder...

best

kehaulani · Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:03 pm Post subject:

A mouthpiece can be smaller for higher range but it's got to fit your chops.

I got a mouthpiece from Ray Triscari (first-call, L.A. studios) which was smaller than my, already small, Purviance 4*D4. I used it several days later in a soul-band gig and before the gig was over, my chops were literally bleeding.

Beware and make sure it fits your chops in actuality regardless of what it theoretically brings.
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tjilp · Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:20 am Post subject:

Currently, I'm also considering if I should try a smaller diameter (again). About 6 months ago, I went from Warburton 3 to 5, only because I noticed a huge difference in endurance above high C. Even though the 5 felt less comfortable then.

Now that I'm fully at ease with the 5, it even feels a bit too roomy, so again I'm thinking of narrowing down, to 6 or 7.

For me, cup depth is more relevant to sound than it is for range. (I use MD)
Freedom of blowing does slightly contribute to range though. I switched backbore from 7* to 8*, and high F en G become more stable and open.

For what it is worth ...
Good luck!
Maarten
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scottfsmith · Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:15 am Post subject:

Cup depth also factors into range, maybe not as much as rim and backbore but it is also a factor. I was using a GR 65L and tried a 65MX which is ever slightly shallower, and it makes the high notes just a bit easier to play without much penalty at all in the tone. The mouthpieces are nearly identical, only the cup depth differs.

There are diminishing returns at some point with the rim but it never hurts to try out a smaller one. I would do the Warburton 6 and not the 7 since even a 6 is diminished returns for most players. You also might want to try one notch deeper on the smaller diameter, i.e. a 6D, so you don't lose much volume.

A few months ago I narrowed my rim and have been enjoying the range and efficiency benefit. I don't think I am going to go narrower than the GR 65 ( = Warburton 5) though.
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tjilp · Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:09 am Post subject:

Thank you, scottfsmith, useful considerations!
Btw, what do you mean by "diminishing returns"?
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scottfsmith · Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:21 am Post subject:

Bill_Bumps · Veteran Member Joined: 07 May 2019 Posts: 157

B. Scriver · Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:53 am Post subject:

Smaller shoes are better for running the 100m. Oh wait...or was it larger shoes? Maybe it's the shoes that fit.

Ya I know...kind of a jerkish reply but it really does apply to trumpet mouthpieces. Play what fits you and matches your horn. play what you can play accurately on and not miss notes. There is way more to it than that but that basically sums it up. Give us a shout if you want to discuss in more depth.

Brian Scriver
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cheiden · Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:47 am Post subject:

If I go too larger an ID then I feel like my lips aren't supported and it takes more effort to play high and/or loud. The result, I tire faster.

If I go too small an ID then I feel like I have less lip muscle to make adjustments and can't get around the way I need. The result, I tire faster.

Smaller ID doesn't seem to help my upstairs.

I have had a few pieces that were shallower that gave me some minimal support when playing higher. They didn't give me any additional range but incrementally facilitated the range I had.

Too narrow/too wide a rim, or too little/too much bite, these have similar tradeoffs.
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Vin DiBona · Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:34 pm Post subject:

Brian Scriver has assisted hundreds, if not thousands, of players from all genres of music select the proper mouthpiece, including me.
It is the truth and pure common sense.

Yes! The right (emphasis on right) smaller diameter can and will make high register easier. Other variables with this kind of mouthpiece include cup shape, depth, rim contour, and backbore. There are limits to how large and how small a mouthpiece a player can actually make work. A smaller diameter means your targets for notes requires more accuracy (read practice) to hit the notes.

Do not be so concerned with how something did or did not work for other commentators. YOU are the one who must make the decision and you have no idea if any of the posters are active, working, in demand professionals with the credentials to back up what they say.

As a side note and relative to a comment above, I am friends with one of the greatest lead trumpet players in the world. Every Wednesday we play in a trumpet quintet. He stopped posting here years back because some clowns here were constantly telling him he didn't know what he was talking about.

Take the GR questionnaire or talk to a manufacturer about your needs.
R. Tomasek

kehaulani · Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:58 pm Post subject:

Vin DiBona · Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:55 pm Post subject:

Kehaulani,
Send an email to here grmouthpieces@gmail.com and Brian will send you the questionnaire.
R. Tomasek

kehaulani · Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:35 pm Post subject:

Thanks.
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blbaumgarn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705

The comments nail it. It is a matter of a smaller/shallower mpc. fitting the individual. When younger I played a Bach 1C, which would have been a Mt. Vernon mpc. I guess as I got it in about 1964. I used it for everything for a long time. After buying a Benge 5 in about 1974 and getting to know the h.s. band director where I was living then he said I could tinker if I wanted to build the upper register. I was a freak for Bill Chase and Maynard so I got my hands on two jet tones. An MF and one that was V-cupped. They do provide an easier upper register but as far as I was concerned they sacrificed depth and core to the sound. A couple years later the director and I looked at whetever Bach had for a mpc. catalog and I bought a 10 3/4 EW? I guess. That also made the upper register snap, plus the rim was very comfortable and it didn't sacrifice the rich sound I felt I got with the 1C. In the end I stuck with the 1C thinking I didn't want to get something easy on the top end without working to build the register and it let me keep a broad rich sound for everything else. I had little jazz lab bend experience, so my experience was in wind ensembles and orchestra. It can be a fun process to experiment with, though!
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