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Trumpetingbynurture
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 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:49 am Post subject: Monette vs Lotus vs AR Resonance |
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| So these all seem like variations on a theme to some extent... Just wondering if anyone has played all three and can offer their thoughts on how they all compare to each other? |
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bike&ed
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| Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:04 am Post subject: |
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I have played Monette mouthpieces and horns, and only Lotus horns. I’d like to try AR but haven’t had the chance yet. They are quite different IMHO, you’ve really gotta try them to make your own determinations.
Also, having learned some of their history: sadly Lotus is pretty much a direct copy/knockoff of AR, while AR is an original line created out of frustration with Monette...
Last edited by bike&ed on Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Danbassin
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| Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Monette vs Lotus vs AR Resonance |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | | So these all seem like variations on a theme to some extent... Just wondering if anyone has played all three and can offer their thoughts on how they all compare to each other? |
A quick search on this site of any of these manufacturers will bring you voluminous opinions and some very few answers to your question. While we're at it, through Harrelson and Taylor into the mix, as well. Even as far as the European continent, certain Spada and Adams models have a very clear model:
What's a common thread? Monette was first. Dave Monette's constant pitch center designs are the major part of what makes his equipment unique. In the 1990s, the outward appearance of some of his more radical designs: heavy gauge brass; sheet bracing; integral mouthpieces; etc - were copied by many, but none more so than Andy Taylor. To his credit, Taylor horns which at the time were decidedly* Monette knock-offs did manage to play with some authority and interesting tonal colors (which not everyone simply adding mass to an instrument were able to do - as inherent design flaws are only exacerbated by the adding of mass for its own sake), albeit without the playing characteristics of Monette. Further, from a design standpoint, Taylor has managed some impressive, novel feats, with square or octagonal bells, spray-painted American flags and eagles lacquered into the instruments, and even recently on eBay...a Darth Vader horn!
*By way of to briefly stating this - my comment on this thread is my opinion, based on the actual history of the companies named. For example, can anyone else justify why else Taylor would call his early Monette lookalike models, "CHICAGO" (the city in which Monette's earliest unique designs came into being) let alone a fairly more recent "Piranha" trolling Monette's yogi/sanskrit "Prana".*
While Jason Harrelson began his career in a similar manner to Monette: modifying mass market instruments with an aim of improved resonance and other playing attributes specific to HIS concepts, his building/horn-tweaking mentor and teacher, Ralph Schwartz, was far more into the properties of different materials, while a younger Dave Monette insisted brass instruments be made only out of brass. Now, Dave did begin using bronze alloys for parts of his bells in the recent past, however a Facebook post of only yesterday had him admitting that a stainless steel mouthpiece was something he had zero interest in pursuing. Harrelson is, like Monette and others mentioned, an inventor, and his path at this point is quite unique...though some years ago I was bugged how hashtags including the term "Monette" were used in some of his social media posts.
As for Lotus, that's something that long-time Monette player, Adam Rapa, came up with in coordination with Taylor and others to suit his playing style, and to capitalize personally off of his fame and visibility. Nothing expressly wrong, there. Inasmuch as Lotus mouthpieces attempt to build-off or simply copy design principles of Monette's constant pitch center, one can only speculate on the amount of trade secret reverse-engineering went on...
AR Resonance seems to have more success stealing erstwhile Monette players away from Dave's gear than Taylor ever did, and perhaps more than Adam Rapa's horns will. A thread from a few years ago shows that Rapacciuolo seriously took offense when Monette's most recent mouthpiece design innovation used this term, Resonance. A ridiculously oversimplified analysis of his and Monette's business model would show that AR Resonance wants to offer a ton of mix-and-match options, both in mouthpiece and horn components and materials.
---Personally, one thing that I love about being a Monette player is that I leave it to Dave and his colleagues to send me equipment that works with their and my concepts - I'm delighted I haven't had to tweak rims and cups and backbones and bore sizes and bell materials and lead pipe tapers, etc. SINCE moving to my main Monette gear.
There's plenty more to go on, but I'll stop short with this - Monette's concepts hinge on body use and sound concepts that are radical and revolutionary. Any terse review of his videos - either Facebook or YouTube - will show that much of his work over the past 36 years has been to help players shed physical compensation techniques which were part of their routine when playing older, conventional, non-Constant Pitch Center equipment. The lookalikes, copycats, and genuine alternatives from the newer designers offer horns with the 'cool' factor without requiring as much change from the player, and - in my humble opinion - miss the point central to all of Monette's designs. Of course, it's not necessarily the point they were going for...and all of these businesses are businesses.
Happy practicing,
-DB
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Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Interesting stuff Dan! This thread is in the mouthpiece section though so I think it is about the mouthpieces not the horns the OP is after.
I asked a similar question here a few months ago:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1561957
and got one reply. Note that Donat is another new European maker in this arena.
One of the things I mentioned there was the throat sizes on the non-Monette mouthpieces are somewhat less extreme than the Monette Prana, so none are copies. AR also buys into the component system, and Monette really dislikes that.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Monette vs Lotus vs AR Resonance |
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| Danbassin wrote: |
---Personally, one thing that I love about being a Monette player is that I leave it to Dave and his colleagues to send me equipment that works with their and my concepts - I'm delighted I haven't had to tweak rims and cups and backbones and bore sizes and bell materials and lead pipe tapers, etc. SINCE moving to my main Monette gear.
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Hi Dan,
Thanks for your response. I was just wondering about this part of what you wrote. This is one things about Monette mouthpieces that I really don't get.
Much of their range a pieces that were made for specific players. And I believe Dave Monette does lots of personal experimenting and testing.
And I can appreciate that there might be some physics that makes the Monette design play more intune / easily etc.
What I don't get in particular is how a rim, alpha angle and cup shape that sounds, feels and plays great for one person is supposed to be good for everyone, just because the diameter is in a similar ball park. But you say that's exactly what happened for you. I don't get it!
Maybe I've just bought into mouthpiece maker marketing about matching the mouthpiece to the player.
A penny for your thoughts? |
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trumpetchops
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| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:59 am Post subject: |
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It has to be a partnership between the player, mouthpiece, trumpet and audience.
From my experience with Monette, I picked the mouthpiece size and the model of trumpet, Dave put it all together so I could reach the audience.
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Monroe Ct. |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| Well I actually ended up purchasing a used Monette Resonance (classic) mouthpiece in my diameter. I've played a few Monette 'copies', but they were all based on the original pre-slap models, so it will be interesting to see how I like not just the real thing, but the most up to date model... |
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Danbassin
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Monette vs Lotus vs AR Resonance |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: |
Hi Dan,
Thanks for your response. I was just wondering about this part of what you wrote. This is one things about Monette mouthpieces that I really don't get.
Much of their range a pieces that were made for specific players. And I believe Dave Monette does lots of personal experimenting and testing.
And I can appreciate that there might be some physics that makes the Monette design play more intune / easily etc.
What I don't get in particular is how a rim, alpha angle and cup shape that sounds, feels and plays great for one person is supposed to be good for everyone, just because the diameter is in a similar ball park. But you say that's exactly what happened for you. I don't get it!
Maybe I've just bought into mouthpiece maker marketing about matching the mouthpiece to the player.
A penny for your thoughts? |
Hey - thanks for the (excellent) questions!
Firstly, I'm lucky that the basic mouthpiece I play, and that agrees with me, my approach and sound concept best, is that of a former teacher and one of my musical heroes, Charlie Schlueter. I began playing a Monette 1-2 sized mouthpiece on my C, then also Bb (C1-2, B1-2) before moving to 'his' sizes (1-1) for many years. Over that time, certain design paradigm upgrades (Prana) as well as technological improvements ('slap' cups) came about, and I've followed Monette's lead in moving through to these upgrades, as they have improved every aspect of the equipment response and my ability to best realize my musical goals.
That said, the points I was trying to make above had less to do with the customization of the aspects of rim and cup you're asking about, as much as the balancing aspects of the mouthpiece to achieve Monette's 'Constant Pitch Center' features. ie, I'm grateful that aspects like gap, backbore shape and throat size have been optimized into the design by Monette, and I haven't been endlessly chasing something in increments of thousandths of an inch --- he and his colleagues have done the math for me.
Now, you're right about the personal aspects of which rim and cup may work best with an individual player, and also - to a certain extent - about some Monette designs being initially made for specific clients, as is the case with my mpc. I recall an early video of the Monette shop in Chicago, shortly after Dave first designed his STC mouthpieces, wherein he tells an interviewer that the rim and cup are personal, and then it's his job to balance the other design elements - length, weight, throat, backbore...etc. - to achieve the playing qualities that make his equipment and concepts work.
The work that Dave has done on the 'front' of the mpc - especially since his incorporation of CNC machinery over the past 10-15yrs - have had some impacts on some of the parameters you mention, however this work also furthers his concepts and are tantamount to an overall design improvement. The term you use, "Alpha Angle" I believe was coined by GR, and is a useful measure - especially if that 1C rim is perfect for you, but that 5B cup is just a tab too...something, and dialing-in that transition from rim to cup really helps you get where you're going.
By way of personal anecdote, I recall feeling iffy about "SLAP" being an upgrade, when this first came around. At the time, I was playing a secondhand Monette STC-4 C trumpet, and sent the horn in for upgrades, along with fitting a new mouthpiece (this design of horn takes a different, heavier mouthpiece blank, and, along with that throat/backbore++ changes from designs meant for a Bach, Yamaha, etc.). I wasn't so sure I wanted my sound *slappier*, and asked for both my usual C1-1, as well as the new design which would be called C1-1S1. I played my familiar, comfortable, old-style piece for a while, until I realized that everything felt better, sounded better, and played better on the new design. Oddly, the C1-1S1 is actually a noticeably BIGGER mouthpiece than the already big 1-1 cup, but it played with more color, greater ease, more flexibility, better attacks, brighter/richer brights and deeper/more powerful darks. He did the hard work, and I was able to focus on the music.
So, to your main point, the onus is still on the player to determine if a B2S3 or B2S5, or a B2S3W, or a B4S S2 or B4S1...are right for them, their musical contexts and basic approach [AND BJ Cord is on staff specifically to make sure players understand what Monette has to offer that will best work for the specific client], but I remain grateful that their unprecedented R&D enable me to put the latest/greatest design into my horn, as I focus more and more on music-making, and less on trumpet-playing.
A final note - as the physical approach required for these designs differs from just about everything else out there, sometimes finding the exact size that currently suits your playing isn't the right way to go when making the switch to Monette. I've known countless 3C players who don't necessarily get everything they were hoping out of a B6S1, but find their true home on a B2S3 (for all-round players), which happens to be THE most popular Monette design.
BJ is the authority on this, so I just stopped myself from going into too much further detail.
All the best, and happy practicing!
-DB
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Dan, interesting stuff.
I've almost always preferred open throats and backbores which seem to require more of a vocal/singing approach to playing. I'll give the Monette 6 weeks or so and see how things go.
The other thing I have never quite been sold on is the Monette sound. Both the original and the copies I've tried in the past all have what I've heard Monette describe as 'rub' in the sound and as a desirable quality. But to me it has always just sounded like the tone is a little unfocused, and unconsciously I keep trying to get rid of that to achieve 'pure' tone, which ends up being me working against the mouthpiece rather than with it.
(also, it's not just me, I've noticed the same quality in the close up videos of others Dave posts on facebook etc. Hard to say about from the distance example as the whirring of CNC machines is quite distracting)
Maybe it's a projection thing... What the audience hears is a richness, but what I am going to hear behind and around me is something different to what I hear in my head, and I'll have to try to just let it be and trust the equipment (easier said than done when your ears are full of Maurice and Hakan and Phil Smith etc)!
Anyway, to where should I send the penny?  |
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trumpetchops
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | Thanks Dan, interesting stuff.
I've almost always preferred open throats and backbores which seem to require more of a vocal/singing approach to playing. I'll give the Monette 6 weeks or so and see how things go.
The other thing I have never quite been sold on is the Monette sound. Both the original and the copies I've tried in the past all have what I've heard Monette describe as 'rub' in the sound and as a desirable quality. But to me it has always just sounded like the tone is a little unfocused, and unconsciously I keep trying to get rid of that to achieve 'pure' tone, which ends up being me working against the mouthpiece rather than with it.
(also, it's not just me, I've noticed the same quality in the close up videos of others Dave posts on facebook etc. Hard to say about from the distance example as the whirring of CNC machines is quite distracting)
Maybe it's a projection thing... What the audience hears is a richness, but what I am going to hear behind and around me is something different to what I hear in my head, and I'll have to try to just let it be and trust the equipment (easier said than done when your ears are full of Maurice and Hakan and Phil Smith etc)!
Anyway, to where should I send the penny? |
When I went from a Bach MP to Monette, I didn't notice any difference in sound. Maybe I'm just not good enough to hear it? I'm not a full time player.
When I went to a heavier Monette trumpet, I got many compliments on my sound. The heavy trumpet didn't work for me so while still Monette, I went with a light trumpet. The complements on the sound went away.
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Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:17 am Post subject: |
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I definitely notice a difference in sound with my Monette mpc. A rough idea is more midrange overtones compared to lows/highs.
Is it better or worse? It depends on what kind of music, for many things it is just a different flavor so no real plus or minus and it is better for some things and worse for others. Overall I prefer my GR tone by a bit (GR 65MX over Monette B6DS1).
There are also many other pluses and minuses in my view. For a plus the Monette has a more powerful sound. Another plus is it has cleaner transitions - the frequency locks in faster to a new pitch whether tongued or slurred. Another plus is it encourages a less forced playing style so even if you don't stick with it, playing on a Monette for several months is a good idea. A minus for me is I find my GR a bit more efficient. The Monette is more efficient than many mouthpieces, but not the GR.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces |
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kevin_soda
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Monette vs Lotus vs AR Resonance |
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| Danbassin wrote: |
So, to your main point, the onus is still on the player to determine if a B2S3 or B2S5, or a B2S3W, or a B4S S2 or B4S1...are right for them, their musical contexts and basic approach [AND BJ Cord is on staff specifically to make sure players understand what Monette has to offer that will best work for the specific client], but I remain grateful that their unprecedented R&D enable me to put the latest/greatest design into my horn, as I focus more and more on music-making, and less on trumpet-playing.
A final note - as the physical approach required for these designs differs from just about everything else out there, sometimes finding the exact size that currently suits your playing isn't the right way to go when making the switch to Monette. I've known countless 3C players who don't necessarily get everything they were hoping out of a B6S1, but find their true home on a B2S3 (for all-round players), which happens to be THE most popular Monette design.
-DB |
This is the experience I had with personal growth through Monette mouthpieces. In the early days of Ebay, I was able to purchase a STC B6L and LT BLD. I can't recall exactly what I was looking to change at the time and it may have just been impulse. That BLD changed my life but it wasn't an informed decision. It was luck and probably wasn't ideal by their standards That said, I played on that mouthpiece for about 8 years almost exclusively. I've since moved on to other Monette shapes and sizes, mostly out of curiosity and not necessity. It definitely would have been cheaper to pick up the phone or visit the shop though... I do have a few that I love but, for one reason or another, don't suit me.
I personally love the sound I get with their equipment. If it doesn't sound right one day, it's not the mouthpieces fault.
I do have to acknowledge that the sound isn't right for all environments. One of the community orchestras I play with performs in a box of a room and I just find the Monettes sound too big for the room. I've enjoyed my AR mouthpieces in that setting. I would guess Monette would tell me I'm pushing too hard and they'd be right. If I back off, it would probably be just fine.
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kevin_soda
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I forgot about the purpose of the OP...
I have both Monette and AR and I love them almost equally with a slight favor to Monette. I've never felt the need to try Lotus.
Many would say that AR stole Monette's designs and that may be true. I would say that Dave Monette revolutionized the industry and it's amazing that more mouthpiece manufacturers aren't on board with his design concepts. Perhaps the failure of most knockoffs is a testament to Monette's quality and ingenuity. So, the fact that AR makes shorter mouthpieces with bigger throats and broader backbores just sounds like the evolution of the equipment. They don't sound, look, or feel the same. The only reason I would even think to compare them is that they both follow the modern balance that Dave discovered.
I do wish I had purchased one-piece versions of my ARs because I use the same backbore for all three cups and I don't change the setup during a performance. Every time I switch cups I'm worried I'll drop something...
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theslawdawg
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| kevin_soda wrote: | Oh, I forgot about the purpose of the OP...
I have both Monette and AR and I love them almost equally with a slight favor to Monette. I've never felt the need to try Lotus.
Many would say that AR stole Monette's designs and that may be true. I would say that Dave Monette revolutionized the industry and it's amazing that more mouthpiece manufacturers aren't on board with his design concepts. Perhaps the failure of most knockoffs is a testament to Monette's quality and ingenuity. So, the fact that AR makes shorter mouthpieces with bigger throats and broader backbores just sounds like the evolution of the equipment. They don't sound, look, or feel the same. The only reason I would even think to compare them is that they both follow the modern balance that Dave discovered.
I do wish I had purchased one-piece versions of my ARs because I use the same backbore for all three cups and I don't change the setup during a performance. Every time I switch cups I'm worried I'll drop something... |
Kevin,
Thank you for this. I love my Monette MP, I have zero complaints. I do have an AR on the way, and I'm excited to try it.
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My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone else prefer the sound of the monette 'tradition plus' over the prana?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuVbLaA2sZQ&
Some of the overtones are a lot stronger on the prana than the classic, but to me, they sound like they are unbalanced, there's a lot of emphasis on the octave+a fifth for example. I just think the sound of the tradition plus is more 'beautiful', which perhaps just means more like a human voice? |
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theslawdawg
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | Does anyone else prefer the sound of the monette 'tradition plus' over the prana?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuVbLaA2sZQ&
Some of the overtones are a lot stronger on the prana than the classic, but to me, they sound like they are unbalanced, there's a lot of emphasis on the octave+a fifth for example. I just think the sound of the tradition plus is more 'beautiful', which perhaps just means more like a human voice? |
Aloha, would agree with you about the "beautiful" part on the T Plus. Regarding the overtones using a Prana, it's exactly why I use one. I love the overtones on it, and it gives me a lush quality to my notes. I use a deep cup, because I am all about the dark/smoky sound. Is it unbalanced? Not sure, maybe? Maybe not. But for me....I dig it. The T Plus played exactly as advertised, and for that type of player who likes those type of mouthpieces, it will be a hit.
All the best.
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My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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Jerry
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | | Does anyone else prefer the sound of the monette 'tradition plus' over the prana? |
Yes |
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amymustijujitsumyma
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Joined: 11 Dec 2018
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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There's not a tonne of info /soundbites/reviews of the Taylor Piranaha out on that there on the world wide web yet -
I'd really like to know more about the horn though- anyone tried it ? thoughts? |
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deleted_user_687c31b
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| amymustijujitsumyma wrote: | There's not a tonne of info /soundbites/reviews of the Taylor Piranaha out on that there on the world wide web yet -
I'd really like to know more about the horn though- anyone tried it ? thoughts? |
Trent has...he's taking about it in this video.
I'm not quite sure what the question has to do with the discussion in this thread though. |
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