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NordicNorm
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Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:04 am Post subject: Help with choosing a cornet |
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Hello all you gentlepeople!
I'm hoping to get some guidance on selecting a cornet. I mainly play in a community orchestra but I also play once or twice a year in a British Brass Band style band. I also play Last Post/Reveille at Remembrance Day memorials.
This year our orchestra is rehearsing Folk Song Suite (for military band) by R. Vaughn Williams. I'm playing the 1st Bb cornet part. Right now I'm playing it on the trumpet but would like to try it on the cornet.
So I've decided to take the plunge and purchase a used one.
I've narrowed down my search to the following used cornets:
Smith Watkins K2 (£1,200)
Besson Prestige (£1,700)
Bach 184ML (US$1,450)
Is it unrealistic to expect one cornet to adequately function in both an orchestral and BBB setting?
Any comments appreciated.
Cheers,
_________________
Bb: '77 Bach Strad 37/Taylor Hybrid
C: ‘99 Bach 239/25R
Flugel: Taylor Phat Boy
Cornet: ‘84 Bach Strad 184 Shepherd’s Crook |
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Help with choosing a cornet |
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| NordicNorm wrote: | Hello all you gentlepeople!
I'm hoping to get some guidance on selecting a cornet. I mainly play in a community orchestra but I also play once or twice a year in a British Brass Band style band. I also play Last Post/Reveille at Remembrance Day memorials.
This year our orchestra is rehearsing Folk Song Suite (for military band) by R. Vaughn Williams. I'm playing the 1st Bb cornet part. Right now I'm playing it on the trumpet but would like to try it on the cornet.
So I've decided to take the plunge and purchase a used one.
I've narrowed down my search to the following used cornets:
Smith Watkins K2 (£1,200)
Besson Prestige (£1,700)
Bach 184ML (US$1,450)
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All excellent cornets.
| Quote: |
Is it unrealistic to expect one cornet to adequately function in both an orchestral and BBB setting?
Any comments appreciated.
Cheers, |
The Bach can be a bit direct for BBB playing (though larger bore versions are a bit better in this respect) .
The Prestige is a pure BBB cornet and doesn't really appreciate long-shank mouthpieces in my experience.
The Smith-Watkins is somewhere in between - sounds brighter than a Prestige but not as much so as a Bach... of the three, it's the best all-rounder, comfortably.
The only potential issue (which may well not be an issue in practice) is that they were made by Kanstul (which as you probably know no longer exists) - what the situation would be like with respect to spare parts in future is anyone's guess.
I would also throw another into the ring... the trusty old Getzen Eterna 800.
Very versatile indeed and somehow seems to span genres very effectively indeed - and as a bonus, they can be found pretty damned cheaply (if you get an older one), a real under-rated instrument especially over here in the UK.
For what it's worth, I've owned a Smith-Watkins (sold to fund an Eclipse, a good choice but you're unlikely to find them used or within budget), I've played the Prestige and Getzen a fair bit and the Bach less so...
Every time I've met a player trying to use a Bach 184ML (or a Schilke XA1 for that matter) in a brass band setting they stuck out like sore thumbs, very fine players but sore thumbs all the same - this doesn't mean that it can't be done, but I'd imagine it'd be tougher than it's worth to do so. |
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zaferis
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:38 am Post subject: |
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I think one cornet will do wonderfully both, all settings you're anticipating. You may find that you will use a slightly different mouthpiece in orhcestra, wind ensemble, and brass band. Especially in the Brass Band as the tone can be somewhat unique.
Which one? The best case scenario is that you'll get a chance to play these (and others) and one or more that fit your ear.
I play a Bach. I love the sound, playability, comfort, and familiarity.... But I have built a collection of Bach's... everything in my bag is a Bach right now.
I've heard mumblings that Bach Cornets aren't generally loved in EU Brass Bands... ??
In the passed, I have played Getzens, Yamahas, Bessons, Kanstuls and a couple others. Getzen Eternas have always been wonderful to play and very high on my list of "you should look at one of these"..
From your brief post, and from a distance I'd think the Smith Watkins would be my first look, then the Bach. I have not had good luck with Bessons (tuning and valve issues).
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GordonH
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:43 am Post subject: |
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I play a Besson Prestige and I have played that Vaughan Willams piece on it.
I could own any cornet I wanted to but the Prestige seems to be the most suited to the way I play and my sound concept.
I play it on an Alliance or Denis Wick mouthpiece but I also have a 1C with a #24 throat. That's the only way you can use a Bach type mouthpiece on it, you need a bigger throat. I occasionally use the 1C for more brassy pieces or to avoid switching to trumpet.
I would find it hard to change cornet having played on the Prestige for a while now. It just seems to come up with the goods in every setting.
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
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NordicNorm
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Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Help with choosing a cornet |
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| TKSop wrote: |
I would also throw another into the ring... the trusty old Getzen Eterna 800.
Very versatile indeed and somehow seems to span genres very effectively indeed - and as a bonus, they can be found pretty damned cheaply (if you get an older one), a real under-rated instrument especially over here in the UK.
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Thanks for your reply.
I'll keep an eye out an Eterna.
Cheers,
_________________
Bb: '77 Bach Strad 37/Taylor Hybrid
C: ‘99 Bach 239/25R
Flugel: Taylor Phat Boy
Cornet: ‘84 Bach Strad 184 Shepherd’s Crook |
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NordicNorm
Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: |
Which one? The best case scenario is that you'll get a chance to play these (and others) and one or more that fit your ear.
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Sadly, in my case, that isn't really possible.
| zaferis wrote: |
In the passed, I have played Getzens, Yamahas, Bessons, Kanstuls and a couple others. Getzen Eternas have always been wonderful to play and very high on my list of "you should look at one of these"..
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You're the second one to mention Eternas...
Thanks for weighing in!
Cheers,
_________________
Bb: '77 Bach Strad 37/Taylor Hybrid
C: ‘99 Bach 239/25R
Flugel: Taylor Phat Boy
Cornet: ‘84 Bach Strad 184 Shepherd’s Crook |
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NordicNorm
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Posts: 62
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| GordonH wrote: |
I play it on an Alliance or Denis Wick mouthpiece but I also have a 1C with a #24 throat. That's the only way you can use a Bach type mouthpiece on it, you need a bigger throat. I occasionally use the 1C for more brassy pieces or to avoid switching to trumpet.
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My flugel came with a Dennis Wick mouthpiece but I could never get comfortable playing it - I found it too 'biting' on my lips. I much prefer the Bach 3 FL.
I do like my Bach 1X rim/1B cup with a 24 throat that I use when I'm playing low 3rd parts in the orchestra on trumpet.
The Prestige is certainly high on my list.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Cheers,
_________________
Bb: '77 Bach Strad 37/Taylor Hybrid
C: ‘99 Bach 239/25R
Flugel: Taylor Phat Boy
Cornet: ‘84 Bach Strad 184 Shepherd’s Crook |
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chi2lon
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Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:51 am Post subject: |
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I had to make a similar decision recently and have tried all of these horns. My background is orchestral but since moving to the UK have probably played as much cornet as trumpet. In the end I found something that was a better fit for me, I think the Besson probably is the best choice which is reflected in the price. Outside of those three, I have a good friend who plays a Getzen Eterna which is a lovely horn. For Besson, I've also played many sovereigns which I have preferred to the prestige, but I've also played some total dogs depending on the vintage. They'd be worth checking out if you can try before you buy.
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NordicNorm
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Posts: 62
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| chi2lon wrote: | | Outside of those three, I have a good friend who plays a Getzen Eterna which is a lovely horn. |
Hmm... you're the third person to mention the Eterna.
I'll definitely add this to my list of contenders!
Cheers,
_________________
Bb: '77 Bach Strad 37/Taylor Hybrid
C: ‘99 Bach 239/25R
Flugel: Taylor Phat Boy
Cornet: ‘84 Bach Strad 184 Shepherd’s Crook |
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plankowner110
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delano
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Another vote for the Eterna 800, especially for more allround use. It’s a great corner and maybe the best playing horn I own. |
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Seymor B Fudd
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| NordicNorm wrote: | | chi2lon wrote: | | Outside of those three, I have a good friend who plays a Getzen Eterna which is a lovely horn. |
Hmm... you're the third person to mention the Eterna.
I'll definitely add this to my list of contenders!
Cheers, |
Yes the Eterna is a lovely horn,agile, nice sound, well in tune with itself.
I played Eternas more than 40 years, in a brassband (front row) as well as in symphonic wind bands. As you mention R V Williams I find it necessary to use a cornet in that kind of music, so very british, "island music"!
6 years ago I found a Getzen custom (3850), in mint condition - and bought it. Excellent horn again, somewhat "darker" viz brighter (Eterna), as agile and handy as the Eterna, maybe demanding a trifle more air. But excellent in the brassband. If you ask me I prefer the sound quality of the 3850. But, as I have expressed as my view many times here, a cornet should be played like a cornet, not trumpet. I know, difficult to explain; has something to do with the lyrical, "moor"-sentiments, UK landscape, brassband sweet sound, the attack (gentle, never over blow;think hymns, Aurelia, my favourit exampel the Cornet Carillion. On the other hand the various sound of the Dambusters. Or the frantic ending in Wilhelm Tell overture....O dear I´m getting lost in sentiments. Sorry.
Also, the Getzen valves are outstanding!
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Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:18 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Rapier232
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Smith-Watkins get my vote, for a true British Brass Band sound.
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:18 pm Post subject: Cornet |
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My recommendation is the Getzen Eterna cornet too.
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blbaumgarn
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| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:24 pm Post subject: Help with choosing a cornet |
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I have no experience ever playing Smith-Watkins. I have played the Bach cornets, and extensively played the Getzen 800. I also have played the Schilke A1 long cornet. I love the Getzen horns as they are versatile and built like a tank. The Bachs I played had wonderful warm tone, each one. The Schilke long cornet had by degrees the best tone. None of those horns fit the BBB bill I guess but they are all Cornet and sound cornet. The Bachs and Getzens you should be able to find used pretty reasonable. Good luck with the piece of music and have fun.
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"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
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delano
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Louise Finch
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Help with choosing a cornet |
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| NordicNorm wrote: | Hello all you gentlepeople!
I'm hoping to get some guidance on selecting a cornet. I mainly play in a community orchestra but I also play once or twice a year in a British Brass Band style band. I also play Last Post/Reveille at Remembrance Day memorials.
This year our orchestra is rehearsing Folk Song Suite (for military band) by R. Vaughn Williams. I'm playing the 1st Bb cornet part. Right now I'm playing it on the trumpet but would like to try it on the cornet.
So I've decided to take the plunge and purchase a used one.
I've narrowed down my search to the following used cornets:
Smith Watkins K2 (£1,200)
Besson Prestige (£1,700)
Bach 184ML (US$1,450)
Is it unrealistic to expect one cornet to adequately function in both an orchestral and BBB setting?
Any comments appreciated.
Cheers, |
Hi NordicNorm
Without reading any of the other answers first, I'll tell you my opinion. Without a doubt, I'd go for the Bach 184ML, which I find to be an excellent orchestral and concert/military band cornet. I played my Bach 184ML in these settings for years, and also for brass band playing.
The Prestige and K2 are in my opinion full on British Brass Band style cornets, and since you only play in this setting once or twice a year, I'd without a doubt suggest the Bach 184ML. I love mine. Cornet enough for the English Folk Songs Suite, I've lost count of the number of times I've performed it on the Bach 184ML, but can be trumpet like or orchestral and concert/military band more strident/fanfare style repertoire.
I hope that this will help.
Best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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blbaumgarn
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:08 am Post subject: Helping choose a cornet |
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I agree heartily with Lou. She has all the perspective covered in a way we in the U.S. don't . I agree about the Bach being enough cornet to sound that way and enough brassy to reach out and project too. I always felt the Bach long cornet (181?) and the Schilke A1 gave me the sweetest sound I ever experienced playing an instrument. I envy you getting to choose. It makes me wish I was young again,
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
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NordicNorm
Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Help with choosing a cornet |
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| Louise Finch wrote: |
I hope that this will help.
Lou |
Yes it does!
Thanks Louise!
Cheers,
_________________
Bb: '77 Bach Strad 37/Taylor Hybrid
C: ‘99 Bach 239/25R
Flugel: Taylor Phat Boy
Cornet: ‘84 Bach Strad 184 Shepherd’s Crook |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Help with choosing a cornet |
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| NordicNorm wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: |
I hope that this will help.
Lou |
Yes it does!
Thanks Louise!
Cheers, |
You are always very welcome.
Best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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