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Brassgurus
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Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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Location: Palo Alto, Ca
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 Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Scuba Steve wrote: | | Quote: | | Where have you been monitoring these prices? There has been no price drop from where I stand. They still cost exactly the same as I bought them when they first came out. Eric |
Ebay. When I first started looking, you didn't see many for under around $3300. One vendor currently has one brand new for $2499 by btmdollar. Quinn the Eskimo has an "Open Box" on which he lists the serial number. This horn has been offered from 2799.00 and as low as $2045. It appears to be brand new, but he says it was a Demo Horn that was never played. Check it out. |
btmdollar looks fake. Maybe a pawn shop... Who knows...
"others" sell returns from Conn Selmer on Ebay. They sell the stuff that gets returned from stores like mine. That is how you sell them for less. You buy used/returns from Conn-Selmer.
Ebay is not the best place to gauge the street price. Most will probably sell
a brand new/factory fresh(not a return that was repurchased from Conn-Selmer) 190S43 for around $3279.00 give or take.
Eric |
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LittleRusty
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Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Scuba Steve wrote: | | Quote: | | Where have you been monitoring these prices? There has been no price drop from where I stand. They still cost exactly the same as I bought them when they first came out. Eric |
Ebay. When I first started looking, you didn't see many for under around $3300. One vendor currently has one brand new for $2499 by btmdollar. Quinn the Eskimo has an "Open Box" on which he lists the serial number. This horn has been offered from 2799.00 and as low as $2045. It appears to be brand new, but he says it was a Demo Horn that was never played. Check it out. |
I wonder if Eric is referring to the wholesale cost since he says the price is the same as when he bought them.
Note I am not trying to put words in anyone’s mouth, but a price drop in wholesale would imply that Bach was trying to unload excess stock while a retail, eBay, price drop implies that a reseller is trying to unload excess stock. |
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Brassgurus
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Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Demo horns are not "Brand New". They might look new but they have been to show, other stores, and schools. They will also likely not have the factory warranty anymore. Scuba is not comparing apples to apples.
The price has not dropped. Can you get a cheaper version than brand new? Yes! They have been out long enough to get used and "demo" horns that sell for less than new. This is what you see on ebay. You can also get fake ones on ebay and Amazon. I have seen them in person with people trying to return fakes when they buy authentic.
I hope this helps.
Eric |
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Scuba Steve
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Joined: 23 Aug 2019
Posts: 22
Location: Montgomery, Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hello, Eric.
Yes. Of coarse demos are cheaper. I suspect the demo horn in this case is the one the dealer used to make the photos for their listing. Odd how the price of the same horn has been listed with such a variance in price. It's probably "open box" at worst. I'm sure the good folks at Conn/Selmer keep watch on what price their new instruments are sold for so the little guys can stay competitive with the big guys. I suspect that dealers in either category may have their own tricks they can use to sell them at a lower price, and probably would if they were slow moving. I won't name names, but I have had two different dealers offer to sell me a brand spank'n new one for $2700. I don't say any of this to try to accuse anyone or in any mean spirited way. These are conclusions I have arrived at through many years of dealing with music stores and people in general-and I will be the first one to admit that there are people who know much more about this than I do.
SS
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Scuba Steve
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Joined: 23 Aug 2019
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Location: Montgomery, Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote:
I wonder if Eric is referring to the wholesale cost since he says the price is the same as when he bought them.
Note I am not trying to put words in anyone’s mouth, but a price drop in wholesale would imply that Bach was trying to unload excess stock while a retail, eBay, price drop implies that a reseller is trying to unload excess stock.
This was my thought as well as was echoed in previous posts, but I'm not going to dismiss what Eric has to say. He may be hip to something I'm not. It's happened...
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J.D. Heckathorn
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:59 am Post subject: |
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I think it should be noted this entire thread is speculation on a premise that we really don't have the info in terms of cost/margin figures at Bach to know for sure if the cost has dropped.
The other question that Eric is right to bring up is if mainstream retailers are seeing a drop, which according to wwbw, musicians friend etc it does not appear to be. But a lot happens behind the msrp we see online. Do we know if Bach is selling them to retailers at lower margins to get rid of their stock?
The different sales points in the market are not entirely separate; if retailers have to lower their BIN on eBay it could indicate lower demand and eventually affect the initial cost of the 19043 model at retail. I think this was the only point really being made here since it's an early trend. If they are willing to let the horns go at less than scratch n dent/open box I think there may may be some things to watch here. |
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Scuba Steve
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Location: Montgomery, Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I think it should be noted this entire thread is speculation on a premise that we really don't have the info in terms of cost/margin figures at Bach to know for sure if the cost has dropped.
The other question that Eric is right to bring up is if mainstream retailers are seeing a drop, which according to wwbw, musicians friend etc it does not appear to be. But a lot happens behind the msrp we see online. Do we know if Bach is selling them to retailers at lower margins to get rid of their stock?
The different sales points in the market are not entirely separate; if retailers have to lower their BIN on eBay it could indicate lower demand and eventually affect the initial cost of the 19043 model at retail. I think this was the only point really being made here since it's an early trend. If they are willing to let the horns go at less than scratch n dent/open box I think there may be some things to watch here. |
Both you and Eric make very concise, intelligently phrased points that anyone would be foolish to not give credence, and I thank you for them. I admit in advance that I would make a lousy business man as is I have proven time after time.
Let me give you a real world scenario of an incident I have observed: There is a vendor I have watched for a pretty good while who has advertised a 190s43 with the following story attached to it. He says that he loaned a brand new horn to a local performer in which the horn was used for less than one hour. The horn is now listed for $2699.00. Why would this guy eat $500 in depreciation for someone use the horn for so short a period of time? Frankly, my cherished new found friends, I smell a mouse. Why was this a good business decision? I don't think this move brought him any new business. He still has the same horn with the same story and has for over a year. What gives? I could give more similar stories about this, and other vendors.
I look forward to viewing your responses with a mind very open to new possibilities.
SS
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Scuba Steve wrote: |
...
There is a vendor I have watched for a pretty good while who has advertised a 190s43 with the following story attached to it. He says that he loaned a brand new horn to a local performer in which the horn was used for less than one hour. The horn is now listed for $2699.00. Why would this guy eat $500 in depreciation for someone use the horn for so short a period of time?
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A few basic questions about the 'vendor' -
Is the vendor an 'authorized Bach dealer'?
Has the instrument ever been previously sold 'at retail'?
Is the 'Bach new instrument warranty' in effect for whoever buys from the vendor?
In the case of the vendor letting the performer use the horn for a short while (i.e. taking it for a test drive') - would that change the status of the horn being 'new'.
Maybe the player returned the horn and said it wasn't worth the regular retail price, and declined to purchase it. Suggesting the vendor unload it at a discount.
Or maybe it's all just a 'story'.
Jay
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leahcim
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Joined: 14 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Scuba Steve wrote: | | Quote: | | I play a Centennial 43 and I have to say it is the best Bach I have ever owned / played. |
Please don't take this the wrong way, but because you own a Centennial model, which I would love to have but my book keeper (AKA, the Mrs.) refuses to spend the money on, I do hate you so completely and from the very essence of my soul.
Aside from the engraving and the silver trim kit, is it any different than the regular 190s43? If you say "Yes, it's better", then my journey to the dark side will be complete. |
Sorry, there are no other differences other than the engraving and the trim kit. There is a special badge on the case if you care about that type of thing.
<SARCASM>
However, it it would make you fell better... yes, the differences compared to a normal 190 are immense. It actually has essence of Bach himself sprinkled in the metal and has a super standing wave efficiency thingamabob that makes the high register up to triple G easy. Dave Monette himself is using this horn as a prototype for getting back into modifying Bachs. </SARCASM> |
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J.D. Heckathorn
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Joined: 16 Aug 2018
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Scuba Steve wrote: | | Quote: | I think it should be noted this entire thread is speculation on a premise that we really don't have the info in terms of cost/margin figures at Bach to know for sure if the cost has dropped.
The other question that Eric is right to bring up is if mainstream retailers are seeing a drop, which according to wwbw, musicians friend etc it does not appear to be. But a lot happens behind the msrp we see online. Do we know if Bach is selling them to retailers at lower margins to get rid of their stock?
The different sales points in the market are not entirely separate; if retailers have to lower their BIN on eBay it could indicate lower demand and eventually affect the initial cost of the 19043 model at retail. I think this was the only point really being made here since it's an early trend. If they are willing to let the horns go at less than scratch n dent/open box I think there may be some things to watch here. |
Both you and Eric make very concise, intelligently phrased points that anyone would be foolish to not give credence, and I thank you for them. I admit in advance that I would make a lousy business man as is I have proven time after time.
Let me give you a real world scenario of an incident I have observed: There is a vendor I have watched for a pretty good while who has advertised a 190s43 with the following story attached to it. He says that he loaned a brand new horn to a local performer in which the horn was used for less than one hour. The horn is now listed for $2699.00. Why would this guy eat $500 in depreciation for someone use the horn for so short a period of time? Frankly, my cherished new found friends, I smell a mouse. Why was this a good business decision? I don't think this move brought him any new business. He still has the same horn with the same story and has for over a year. What gives? I could give more similar stories about this, and other vendors.
I look forward to viewing your responses with a mind very open to new possibilities.
SS |
i could be 100% wrong but it's interesting to speculate
I'm always wary of these stories, I agree with you I don't buy it. Seems like an easy story to miraculously make a used horn "like new". But I guess it really depends if there's any wear at all, if it's been loaned more than once, if it has warranty, etc. that might make it less than new in box.
I recently tossed around the idea of getting my vintage main horn completely redone (there's some red rot in tuning slide/leadpipe). After asking around for the cost for the kind of work I'd require I decided to pony up a little extra bf bought a brand new Bach. When it comes to big purchases for a new horn, at $2700 I'm prob gonna just pay the retail $32-3500 or whatever they are new from Bach or a Bach dealer to have peace of mind and a warranty. |
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Scuba Steve
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Location: Montgomery, Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:15 am Post subject: |
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leahcim
I guess I will not count you among the rebel resistance. You may live.
Seriously, though, Nice horn.
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Denny Schreffler
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Scuba Steve
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Joined: 23 Aug 2019
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Location: Montgomery, Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:43 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta
Is the vendor an 'authorized Bach dealer'?
Yes, Very much so.
Has the instrument ever been previously sold 'at retail'?
From what I take from the "story" No, But in truth I don't know.
Is the 'Bach new instrument warranty' in effect for whoever buys from the vendor?
I have made that exact inquiry and have not received an answer.
The vendor has at least three possibly 4 190s43 with similar stories. Assuming 4, that's around $2k in profit possibly being flushed. I may never know the truth.
Someone else made the point that this may be a way of making a used horn appear "like new". A fair statement and I have no doubt that this happens. But, the inverse could also be true. This cold make a new horn appear lightly used just for the sake of moving it out. I wouldn't doubt that instrument makers would have policies in place to make this behavior difficult to get away with (at least I hope they do!), but I'm sure there are those who might find a way around that.
I haven't seen a premise here on either side of the issue that I have thought of as "Oh, that must be the answer." both sides of the issue have the ring of truth to them. As far as being wary of the new horn for $2700, it was a horn I had just played in their show room. There was no bait 'n switch going on here, and yes, they would have given me the full warranty.
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Dayton
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The horn is now listed for $2699.00 |
Anyone can purchase a 19043 from their local Conn-Selmer dealer via the BuildaBach website for $2752.00 (no case or mouthpiece) or $3136.00 (with case and mouthpiece).
I don't know what the cost to the dealer is, but it is certainly less than those prices. |
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Scuba Steve
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Joined: 23 Aug 2019
Posts: 22
Location: Montgomery, Alabama
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Dayton said:
| Quote: | | I don't know what the cost to the dealer is, but it is certainly less than those prices. |
They keep those "dealer cost" list more secret than anything we could imagine. I think you would have an easier time finding out Who the shooter was behind the grassy knoll, What really happened in Roswell New Mexico , or where Jimmy Hoffa's remains are located before you could find out what a dealer pays for their horns.
Honestly, I don't want to know. I'm sure it would hurt my feelings.
SS
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mafields627
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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I've spent a lot of time talking with my music store road guys over the years and, even with different companies, they all say that the profit margin is very low on pro level horns. The music stores make all of their money on student rentals and combo equipment.
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Scuba Steve
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| mafields627 wrote: | | I've spent a lot of time talking with my music store road guys over the years and, even with different companies, they all say that the profit margin is very low on pro level horns. The music stores make all of their money on student rentals and combo equipment. |
I've had the same experience.
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