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novahype
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Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:26 pm Post subject: Am I fighting the instrument or myself? |
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Hello,
This post is in relation to my embouchure and my playing as a whole. To begin, I’ve been playing on a 3C throughout the course of high school. In which I’ve had braces. Braces were a struggle but I was able to overcome them and be able to play without pain. This recent May, I got my braces off. After this period, my endurance severely dropped and it hurt to play for long periods of time. Reflecting back on this, I believe I was trying to use the same embouchure that I was using with my braces. From this point I mistakenly concluded that it was my mouthpiece not myself. Over the summer, I used the plastic Kelly screamer, as it was soft on my mouth and comfortable for me. Come school time, I couldn’t use the screamer, and I needed a proper metal mouthpiece. I began trying out new much smaller mouthpieces ranging from a Schilke 6A4A Heavyweight, Schilke Faddis, Schilke 13A4Z. With these mouthpieces I was unable to find one that suited me, likely due to the size. Around this time I also noticed my embouchure had adjusted in a bad way. To get to the upper register, my mouth slides upward. After playing it also leaves a big ring on my lower lip. At this point, I am back to using the 3C, and am still having the issue with my mouthpiece sliding up when advancing to the upper register. How can I fix this problem, any input would be appreciated. Thank you for reading this. |
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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harryjamesworstnightmare
Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2010
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Teacher |
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| dfcoleman wrote: | Hi!
Suggestion- Don’t worry so much about the mouthpiece, but instead get a good teacher. He or she should be able to give you the guidance you need. |
i agree with the above statement. In the meantime try practicing very softly for your entire practice session for at least a week. Focus on a clear tone and stick to long tones for at least 20% - 25% of your total practice time. I have taught many people who had braces removed and there is a big change in embouchure. You need time for adjustment. After you get your low and mid range comfortable again, slowly and cautiously advance your range upward each day. It is very much like learning to play all over again except you at least have the head start of good tone and embouchure strength. But do find yourself a good instructor.
_________________
Brian James
-------------------------
King Super 20 Symphony
Bach Strad 43 Sterling Silver Plus
Getzen Proteus
Yamaha 6335HS
Olds Super
Olds Mendez
Getzen Custom 3850 Cornet
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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When you go through a big change like that I usually advise going back to basics and rebuilding from the ground up. That sounds scary but in reality it shouldn't take very long. This assumes that you have a good fundamentals routine to return to. If you don't have one you'd do well to find a suitably qualified teacher to make you one. I'm talking about relatively remedial exercises like you find in Schlossberg, Stamp, and Clarke. Be super diligent with those for a few weeks before gradually progressing to more taxing material.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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JVL
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Teacher |
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| harryjamesworstnightmare wrote: | | dfcoleman wrote: | Hi!
Suggestion- Don’t worry so much about the mouthpiece, but instead get a good teacher. He or she should be able to give you the guidance you need. |
i agree with the above statement. In the meantime try practicing very softly for your entire practice session for at least a week. Focus on a clear tone and stick to long tones for at least 20% - 25% of your total practice time. I have taught many people who had braces removed and there is a big change in embouchure. You need time for adjustment. After you get your low and mid range comfortable again, slowly and cautiously advance your range upward each day. It is very much like learning to play all over again except you at least have the head start of good tone and embouchure strength. But do find yourself a good instructor. |
hello,
while i agree, i'll add 3 things :
- make sure not to confuse playing soft with pinching or closing too much your aperture, which also would create an embouchure not adapted to playing loud. Otherwise soft playing would make more harm than good
- play at mf-f volume too during your session
- practicing many hours with uncorrect technics or embouchure will not be efficient. Have lessons with some Masters
best |
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Andy Del
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2665
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:38 am Post subject: |
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If I saw this in my studio, I would be thinking extreme solutions... but you are not, so it’s not worthwhile saying what they would be. You won’t be able to follow through, as it takes some time and you would absolutely need the guidance of a teacher.
So that is where you need to go. It’s been proved you don’t get it right on your own, so go get a GOOD teacher. Today.
Cheers
Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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novahype
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Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Can you elaborate on what you mean by extreme solutions? |
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Ed Kennedy
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Give us your general location and maybe we can recommend specific teachers for you to contact. |
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Turkle
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Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 2450
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| novahype wrote: | | Can you elaborate on what you mean by extreme solutions? |
Switching to violin.
_________________
Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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Mike Sailors
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Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 1838
Location: Austin/New York City
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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The answer to the question in the post title is yes. We’re all fighting the instrument, and ourself at all times. There’s no getting around that.
For the other stuff - you need a good teacher. In fact, most everyone here probably needs a good teacher.
Probably not the answer you’re looking for . . . apologies.
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theslawdawg
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Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Turkle wrote: | | novahype wrote: | | Can you elaborate on what you mean by extreme solutions? |
Switching to violin. |
_________________
My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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Ed Kennedy
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| theslawdawg wrote: | | Turkle wrote: | | novahype wrote: | | Can you elaborate on what you mean by extreme solutions? |
Switching to violin. |
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Switch to Bass. You'll get more work. |
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theslawdawg
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Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 843
Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | theslawdawg wrote: | | Turkle wrote: | | novahype wrote: | | Can you elaborate on what you mean by extreme solutions? |
Switching to violin. |
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Switch to Bass. You'll get more work. |
I play both trumpet and guitar. ....And bass when I'm frustrated with both of them.
_________________
My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Am I fighting the instrument or myself? |
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| novahype wrote: | Hello,
This post is in relation to my embouchure and my playing as a whole. To begin, I’ve been playing on a 3C throughout the course of high school. In which I’ve had braces. Braces were a struggle but I was able to overcome them and be able to play without pain. This recent May, I got my braces off. After this period, my endurance severely dropped and it hurt to play for long periods of time. Reflecting back on this, I believe I was trying to use the same embouchure that I was using with my braces. From this point I mistakenly concluded that it was my mouthpiece not myself. Over the summer, I used the plastic Kelly screamer, as it was soft on my mouth and comfortable for me. Come school time, I couldn’t use the screamer, and I needed a proper metal mouthpiece. I began trying out new much smaller mouthpieces ranging from a Schilke 6A4A Heavyweight, Schilke Faddis, Schilke 13A4Z. With these mouthpieces I was unable to find one that suited me, likely due to the size. Around this time I also noticed my embouchure had adjusted in a bad way. To get to the upper register, my mouth slides upward. After playing it also leaves a big ring on my lower lip. At this point, I am back to using the 3C, and am still having the issue with my mouthpiece sliding up when advancing to the upper register. How can I fix this problem, any input would be appreciated. Thank you for reading this. |
I realize that this musician is sincere. Yet even after a careful analysis of it I can't exactly detect what his problem is. For starters,
Why are the shallower metal mouthpieces a problem? I kinda like the 13a4a piece esp for marching band and jazz ensemble. Granted you wouldnt probably get away with these "screamer pieces" if you were in the Boston symphony but my guess is that you're not. So? Tell us your exact problem with these.
Now about that "mouthpiece slippage"? Please define more specifically WHY you consider this a problem?
Regardless let me take a stab at it. Be advised however, Sometimes my advice runs counter to conventional thinking. However keep this in] mind.
"Conventional thinking produces conventional results". "'Conventional results" include average trumpet players. And "average players" can not play lead in a big band. Not enough range.
Unconventional thought of mine:
Whenever I learn of trumpet players who "shift" onto another chop positioning as they enter the upper register? I recommend that they work with this "shifted" embouchure setting as their main setting. Not the lower register position.
Because the lower register on the trumpet is fairly easy. The woods are packed full of trumpets who can't even blow a high C. So if I were you I'd take that advantage your shift gives you. Staying in the higher setting positiioning even when playing lower tones. And even if you can't play these lower tones so well or at all.
Because one of the biggest embouchure faults is playing on loose, flabby positioned lips. This is a observation found in both Reinhardt and Stevens-Costello.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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trUMBet67
Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
Location: Italia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:11 am Post subject: |
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few suggestions:
- try BE (look at the dedicate forum)
- and/or lots of double pedals like Maggio/Callet (Trumpet Yoga)
- free buzzing, like a mosquito, don't try to buzz any sound, then horse flaps
- Caruso...
_________________
Umberto -
Bb: Taylor Chicago II Lite,Conn 38B,Olds Super,Olds Recording,Conn 22B (3),Bach 180 37 modified
C: SLB Callet New York
Flugel: Getzen Eterna 895S-T
Cornet: Getzen Eterna 800 LB Copper,Conn 28A,B&H Imperial
Piccolo: Schilke Herald Bb/A |
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trUMBet67
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Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
Location: Italia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:27 am Post subject: |
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.. obviously, get some lessons by a qualified teacher, as others also suggested.
_________________
Umberto -
Bb: Taylor Chicago II Lite,Conn 38B,Olds Super,Olds Recording,Conn 22B (3),Bach 180 37 modified
C: SLB Callet New York
Flugel: Getzen Eterna 895S-T
Cornet: Getzen Eterna 800 LB Copper,Conn 28A,B&H Imperial
Piccolo: Schilke Herald Bb/A |
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Billy B
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6130
Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Am I fighting the instrument or myself? |
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| novahype wrote: | Hello,
This post is in relation to my embouchure and my playing as a whole. To begin, I’ve been playing on a 3C throughout the course of high school. In which I’ve had braces. Braces were a struggle but I was able to overcome them and be able to play without pain. This recent May, I got my braces off. After this period, my endurance severely dropped and it hurt to play for long periods of time. Reflecting back on this, I believe I was trying to use the same embouchure that I was using with my braces. From this point I mistakenly concluded that it was my mouthpiece not myself. Over the summer, I used the plastic Kelly screamer, as it was soft on my mouth and comfortable for me. Come school time, I couldn’t use the screamer, and I needed a proper metal mouthpiece. I began trying out new much smaller mouthpieces ranging from a Schilke 6A4A Heavyweight, Schilke Faddis, Schilke 13A4Z. With these mouthpieces I was unable to find one that suited me, likely due to the size. Around this time I also noticed my embouchure had adjusted in a bad way. To get to the upper register, my mouth slides upward. After playing it also leaves a big ring on my lower lip. At this point, I am back to using the 3C, and am still having the issue with my mouthpiece sliding up when advancing to the upper register. How can I fix this problem, any input would be appreciated. Thank you for reading this. |
I would venture to say rather than the mouthpiece moving up, your lips are moving down.
_________________
Bill Bergren |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 666
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:39 am Post subject: Spinning your wheels |
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Since you are unable to fix this issue by yourself; take the wise advice by other posters to find a teacher to fix this issue. Unless you want to continue aggravating and frustrating yourself.
Why create any additional drama in your life. I am so glad that I am no longer in my teens or twenties.
Although I am a parent of both a 12 year girl and 8 year old with all the drama they create.
_________________
King 603 cornet
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Syzygy
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Joined: 23 Jun 2018
Posts: 3
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:17 am Post subject: |
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Honestly, the best thing you could do is find a teacher, someone who can understand your playing and help you based on their own experience and opinion of your playing.
_________________
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harryjamesworstnightmare
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:14 am Post subject: |
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THE MOUTHPIECE IS NOT THE PROBLEM!
_________________
Brian James
-------------------------
King Super 20 Symphony
Bach Strad 43 Sterling Silver Plus
Getzen Proteus
Yamaha 6335HS
Olds Super
Olds Mendez
Getzen Custom 3850 Cornet
Conn 80A
Getzen Eterna Flugelhorn |
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