Hummel with a Bb or a Eb

[brem]

I'm wondering what makes the Hummel concerto "easier" on a Eb.
I'm learning it on a Bb and I wonder which passages are easier on a Eb.
_________________
Martin Breton
Yamaha YTR-8335RGS - Bach 5C
Bach Stradivarius Bb Model 37 * #124xxx (circa 1975)
Yamaha YFH-731 Flugelhorn #000xxx - Yamaha 14F4-GP
Getzen Eterna 940
Conn Connquest 20A Cornet 1954
Yamaha YCR-2330S Cornet

[Danbassin]

All of them!

...But then you need to learn how to play Eb.

In many places around the world, playing the Haydn Concerto on a Bb (usually rotary) Trumpet is a requirement for auditions, and otherwise something of a rite of passage. I took my first Haydn out in a competition back in Middle School, then on a Blessing student model Bb. Later I had the opportunity to play it several times with orchestra, and on a Schilke E3L.

People tend to be less partisan around the Hummel for a number of reasons. Firstly, it's not a concerto in Eb, at all - the piece is originally written in E-Major. The first recording of the work was played in that key, but E-natural trumpets were (and are) exceedingly rare. For that modern premiere, Armando Ghitalla played the piece on a Martin C Trumpet. Playing a concerto in six sharps is often discouraged in the trumpet world, but a fairly-recent performance on an antique Heckel Bb Rotary by David Guerrier makes a good case that anything is possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLKaFOUVP1E

These two concerti were, after all, written for something scarcely resembling a modern Bb, or C, or even a turn of the 19th-20th century antique rotary. Markus Würsch is a modern advocate for the keyed trumpet that Weidinger had developed for both Haydn and Hummel's ground-breaking works. Here's a clip of his reconstruction of Weidinger's later edition of Hummel's concerto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XkrFxPBLXQ
And here's a gorgeous rendition of the 2nd movement of the Haydn, accompanied on Fortepiano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8QF3LrqKrA

So, in answer to your question, if you have access to both a Bb and Eb, you're welcome to learn the piece on whichever horn works best for you. Certainly some of the trills are easier on Eb (if that's the key we're shooting for in the Hummel) than a larger horn - one of the things making Guerrier's recording so remarkable. And, while Würsch's virtuosity really makes the keyed trumpet sing, you can hear how not all of the ornaments and trills in these pieces were originally so simple a thing as pushing down a piston or rotary.

If you don't have the smaller horn, by all means begin learning these concerti (and the Neruda...which was likely a horn, or corno da caccia work) on Bb - you'll have trained your chops to make the music you hear in your head, and the work will only be easier, should you eventually turn your work to the smaller horn...or you'll be that much more prepared should you ever take up the keyed trumpet!

Happy practicing!
-DB[/u]
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD

[brem]

Wow, thorough answer!

I was aware of the E vs Eb tuning, and was assuming that the trumpet player plays the concerto in Eb in both cases.

With the Bb, we are in the key of F and in Eb, well... C. So both are rather equally "easy" fingerings, F being even easier if you want my opinion.

The concerto does not go overly in the high range for long periods.

I guess one can hit more "precisely" those high notes, but with a more awkward fingering throughout.

Soundwise I prefer the sound of bigger horns, but that's a matter of taste really.

So basically I was wondering what, other that convention or requirements or lack of equipment would drive someone to choose to play on Eb rather than Bb.
_________________
Martin Breton
Yamaha YTR-8335RGS - Bach 5C
Bach Stradivarius Bb Model 37 * #124xxx (circa 1975)
Yamaha YFH-731 Flugelhorn #000xxx - Yamaha 14F4-GP
Getzen Eterna 940
Conn Connquest 20A Cornet 1954
Yamaha YCR-2330S Cornet

[brem]

An even more challenging instrument!

Whistling!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3kxB2-MfWI
_________________
Martin Breton
Yamaha YTR-8335RGS - Bach 5C
Bach Stradivarius Bb Model 37 * #124xxx (circa 1975)
Yamaha YFH-731 Flugelhorn #000xxx - Yamaha 14F4-GP
Getzen Eterna 940
Conn Connquest 20A Cornet 1954
Yamaha YCR-2330S Cornet

[kehaulani]

What an informative post, including liner notes! Thanks.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[cgaiii]

Wow. The Markus Würsch videos are wonderful.
Here is the third movement of the Haydn too. Gives a real taste of the transition from the natural trumpet when you listen to this along with the Hummel and the second movement previously posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHR46yaveQ
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

[Hags888]

For me, it's primarily about the trills at the end. They are wicked on a B-flat trumpet and very difficult to do cleanly on a B-flat trumpet as you are trilling form a G to an A above the staff. Without a virtual lip trill guiding the actual trill, it's difficult to make it sound right.

On an E-flat horn, it lowers the key, and thus the trills are much, much easier. Using the higher horn also makes some of the arpeggios sit a little better, again, making it easier to play. The challenge with learning to play it on E-flat (and usually the trade off) is learning to play the E-flat horn in tune and with a rich, open sound.

I usually make my students learn it on B-flat first, and suffer through the trills so they have a better concept of intonation and tuning, and then learn it on E-flat later as they try to figure out how to play the small horn in tune and with a good sound.

[trumpet56]

I play on a C Rotary trumpet with a removable leadpipe. I employ a spacer on the leadpipe which lowers the trumpet a half step into B. You can then play the Concerto in E in the key of F which can be read from a Bb part. I remove the spacer and play the 2nd movement in C. For the 3rd movement I reinstate the spacer. This works well for me.

[brem]

Thanks Haggs, that's exactly the answer I was looking for. Trills.

Hmm

Martin
_________________
Martin Breton
Yamaha YTR-8335RGS - Bach 5C
Bach Stradivarius Bb Model 37 * #124xxx (circa 1975)
Yamaha YFH-731 Flugelhorn #000xxx - Yamaha 14F4-GP
Getzen Eterna 940
Conn Connquest 20A Cornet 1954
Yamaha YCR-2330S Cornet

[trumpetchops]

I've had the same thoughts. I can play it on both trumpets. I think the E flat has a lighter more delicate sound that I think fits the concerto better.

The thing about this concerto for a player like me is, I don't play with an orchestra so, I'll never perform it that way. When I pull it out at a church, the organist takes one look at the part and says "I don't think so". I'll probably never perform it again.
_________________
Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct.

[patdublc]

The last time I performed it, I played on a Schilke E trumpet which is the Schilke G1L with E bell using the F slides. I really like that setup for the horn and use it whenever practical.
_________________
Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models.

[THE BD]

Where can I find a copy of the music for an Eb trumpet? I tried a quick google search and didn't find anything.
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Martin D Williams

Yeah, I did that!

[Danbassin]

[Shark01]

Eb.....the lyrical nature of these 2 pieces lend themselves to sound better in most cases on an Eb.

[epoustoufle]

[Andy Del]

If our are going to perform this piece, please PLEASE, buy a good edition. The one cited on IMSLP to be blunt, is not.

The universal edition is the best. It’s a critical and well thought out edition which attempts to be informative and accurate. Much more so than anything you find on line for nothing.

Cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[lbegnaud]

The info in this thread if very useful. Thank you to all the contributors.

I'm mostly a returning jazz player, but played the Hummel Concerto in college on a B-flat trumpet and want to revisit this piece.

What is the best source for purchasing the published music in E-flat major (not the original E major) with piano accompaniment?

Thank you!
Larry
_________________
- Austin Winds Stage 470LT (bronze bell)
- Austin Winds 665MS-27 (#3 backbore) MP
- Austin Winds pocket trumpet
- Monette B6S1 Res Prana MP
Previously:
Bach Stradivarius 37
Benge pocket trumpet
King Silver Flair
Holton Collegiate (first trumpet)

[Tpt_Guy]

IMSLP has it. Just do a google search for "Hummel Trumpet Concerto IMSLP" then when you go to the site it is under "Arrangements and Transcriptions."

I tried posting a link but it didn't work. When I tried adding the URL using the forum features it gave me a blank post instead.
_________________
-Tom Hall-

"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee

[lbegnaud]

Thank you, Tom. Will take a look.
_________________
- Austin Winds Stage 470LT (bronze bell)
- Austin Winds 665MS-27 (#3 backbore) MP
- Austin Winds pocket trumpet
- Monette B6S1 Res Prana MP
Previously:
Bach Stradivarius 37
Benge pocket trumpet
King Silver Flair
Holton Collegiate (first trumpet)

[vandenplass]