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chrisroyal Regular Member
Joined: 08 Jun 2015 Posts: 25 Location: Washington, DC
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:12 am Post subject: |
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On the same topic , but not the same point... do you all feel the breath attacks in general are just an impulse (like an exhale) that starts the note or is it a full blow with energy, just less air?
Also, playing intervals, with the idea of keeping the blow steady, do you inrcease the blow or see the air the same and simply change the lips? This means it gets softer as one ascends, right?
Last edited by chrisroyal on Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PH Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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There should be no difference in the delivery of the air with a breath attack or with a tongue attack. Don't think about your air. Just blow steady. _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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chrisroyal Regular Member
Joined: 08 Jun 2015 Posts: 25 Location: Washington, DC
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Does steady air mean that as you ascend with intervals the volume gets softer? Maybe it’s just my development but if I keep air steady as opposed to giving more the volume of the notes are softer on upper notes of interval studies and certainly at the tops of scales. Should instead I interpret “steady air” as constant or supported air that changes- as long as I don’t stop the air? |
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PH Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:04 am Post subject: |
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You are definitely overthinking this. Just keep the blow steady. Don't try to control your air (at least not until you get to the SLS & LSL exercises). Your air is either on or it is off. Keep the blow at "room temperature for all calisthenics that do not have dynamics indicated. _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com
Last edited by PH on Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:35 am Post subject: |
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PH wrote: | ... Keep the blow at "room temperature for all calisthenics that do not have dynamics indicated. |
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The OP of this recent topic asked -
"Also, playing intervals, with the idea of keeping the blow steady, do you inrcease the blow or see the air the same and simply change the lips? This means it gets softer as one ascends, right? "
I'm not sure if the OP was asking about breathe for general 'playing', or specifically about doing the Caruso 'calisthenics' that might involve different concerns about breathe and air control.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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JWG Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 257
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:46 am Post subject: |
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While I endeavor in playing trumpet a mere serious hobbyist, I believe that we need to balance our understanding of the physics of sound production with the human element that cannot do supercomputer-level computations of fluid dynamics to modulate the standing wave resonating within the trumpet.
If you understand standing waves, then you understand that you can modulate the frequency and amplitude of the wave to change pitch and dynamics. The throat of the mouthpiece dictates the max/min. volume of air we can each individually pressurize within our bodies to push through it.
I think of air volume and air speed as basically same thing, just as Einstein's equation of E=MC2 explains that energy and matter are the same thing. All we can do is pressurize our lungs to a greater of lesser extent and then control the release of that air through the shape of our oral cavity (tongue/jaw position) and the size of the aperture we create with our lips.
As other forum members have noted, tone quality and blending with the other musicians around you matters most. So, we should always give that priority in guiding our efforts. The human mind can more easily focus on tone and blending than it can focus on computing one's air pressure and the volume of air released through one's lips. I usually cannot figure out whether I have the right balance of air pressure or aperture while playing until after the notes come out. As the proverb goes, "hindsight is 20/20."
My $0.02, simplify the process of playing by focusing your conscious mind on maintaining your tone quality and blending and delegate the responsibility of increasing air pressure and aperture size to modulate the physics going on in the trumpet to your subconscious mind.
After playing, you have all the time in the world to theorize and experiment on what you should have done better to change the physics to your liking. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF |
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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JWG wrote: | While I endeavor in playing trumpet a mere serious hobbyist, I believe that we need to balance our understanding of the physics of sound production with the human element that cannot do supercomputer-level computations of fluid dynamics to modulate the standing wave resonating within the trumpet.
If you understand standing waves, then you understand that you can modulate the frequency and amplitude of the wave to change pitch and dynamics. The throat of the mouthpiece dictates the max/min. volume of air we can each individually pressurize within our bodies to push through it.
I think of air volume and air speed as basically same thing, just as Einstein's equation of E=MC2 explains that energy and matter are the same thing. All we can do is pressurize our lungs to a greater of lesser extent and then control the release of that air through the shape of our oral cavity (tongue/jaw position) and the size of the aperture we create with our lips.
As other forum members have noted, tone quality and blending with the other musicians around you matters most. So, we should always give that priority in guiding our efforts. The human mind can more easily focus on tone and blending than it can focus on computing one's air pressure and the volume of air released through one's lips. I usually cannot figure out whether I have the right balance of air pressure or aperture while playing until after the notes come out. As the proverb goes, "hindsight is 20/20."
My $0.02, simplify the process of playing by focusing your conscious mind on maintaining your tone quality and blending and delegate the responsibility of increasing air pressure and aperture size to modulate the physics going on in the trumpet to your subconscious mind.
After playing, you have all the time in the world to theorize and experiment on what you should have done better to change the physics to your liking. |
Your post has interesting points, but nothing at all to do with the Caruso approach to trumpet playing. |
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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chrisroyal wrote: | Does steady air mean that as you ascend with intervals the volume gets softer? Maybe it’s just my development but if I keep air steady as opposed to giving more the volume of the notes are softer on upper notes of interval studies and certainly at the tops of scales. Should instead I interpret “steady air” as constant or supported air that changes- as long as I don’t stop the air? |
I don't recall Carmine ever addressing this in particular. In lessons I would always try to maintain an equal volume between notes. Naturally, as the upper notes began to ascend pretty high I would be unable to maintain the same volume and it would become less. Carmine never commented on this so I never gave it any thought. And have always practiced in this manner. Since the dynamic marking is an implied MF, that would mean an MF throughout the interval with no decresendo for upper notes. |
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PH Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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JWG wrote: | While I endeavor in playing trumpet a mere serious hobbyist, I believe that we need to balance our understanding of the physics of sound production with the human element that cannot do supercomputer-level computations of fluid dynamics to modulate the standing wave resonating within the trumpet.
If you understand standing waves, then you understand that you can modulate the frequency and amplitude of the wave to change pitch and dynamics. The throat of the mouthpiece dictates the max/min. volume of air we can each individually pressurize within our bodies to push through it.
I think of air volume and air speed as basically same thing, just as Einstein's equation of E=MC2 explains that energy and matter are the same thing. All we can do is pressurize our lungs to a greater of lesser extent and then control the release of that air through the shape of our oral cavity (tongue/jaw position) and the size of the aperture we create with our lips.
As other forum members have noted, tone quality and blending with the other musicians around you matters most. So, we should always give that priority in guiding our efforts. The human mind can more easily focus on tone and blending than it can focus on computing one's air pressure and the volume of air released through one's lips. I usually cannot figure out whether I have the right balance of air pressure or aperture while playing until after the notes come out. As the proverb goes, "hindsight is 20/20."
My $0.02, simplify the process of playing by focusing your conscious mind on maintaining your tone quality and blending and delegate the responsibility of increasing air pressure and aperture size to modulate the physics going on in the trumpet to your subconscious mind.
After playing, you have all the time in the world to theorize and experiment on what you should have done better to change the physics to your liking. |
While I would agree with this post almost completely, this is the Caruso forum and therefore, we should only discuss the CC and related approaches to pedagogy. Therefore, when doing CC calisthenics we ignore everything except the rhythm, blow steady and subdivide the beat. When things feel or sound awkward (during calisthenic practice) we increase our mental focus on timing and subdivision and keep the blow steady.
PERIOD. _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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chrisroyal Regular Member
Joined: 08 Jun 2015 Posts: 25 Location: Washington, DC
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | PH wrote: | ... Keep the blow at "room temperature for all calisthenics that do not have dynamics indicated. |
------------------------------------------------------
The OP of this recent topic asked -
"Also, playing intervals, with the idea of keeping the blow steady, do you inrcease the blow or see the air the same and simply change the lips? This means it gets softer as one ascends, right? "
I'm not sure if the OP was asking about breathe for general 'playing', or specifically about doing the Caruso 'calisthenics' that might involve different concerns about breathe and air control.
Jay |
The reason I wrote about doing the Caruso intervals is that I normally increase support for larger intervals (4ths and larger). I guess that's why 2nds are a good daily practice because they give the feeling of being steady and each note is close in feeling with the others. So if keeping the blow, air, air speed or whatever steady, when I move a 6th 7th, 8va or larger up, doing Caruso, the blowing feel is constant but the volume decreases. Even Clarke studies include crescendo when ascending.
So another way to espress my question is this: when doing Caruso should it feel as if there is one flow of air shared by lower and higher notes, like the feeling of playing always a long tone, even though the pitch is changing? |
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pepperdean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 650 Location: Johnson City, Texas
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Jay,
For the advanced work Carmine assigned, he would have me take an etude from the Cavallini clarinet book (for example) and before playing the etude, he told me to look for intervals larger than an octave. He had me make an exercise beginning on the top note, going back and forth between the two notes while playing both notes with the same feel, or playing between high F and low C as if I were playing the interval of a second.
We all know, with Carmine, just do it; don't think, and I did and it worked great. Reading into it for the sake of applying the principles for my teaching, Carmine always spoke of each player's "twist". (Doc might call it a pivot.) I always felt that the first step (intervals)was to synchronize the timing of the twist and the second step was to diminish or minimize the twist.
Whatever, as the Nike folks say, "Just Do It.
Alan |
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Just as a fun post....
Carmine was using the expression "Just do it" and "Do it" long before Nike
or Gary Gilmore. This is a recording made in 1973.
http://www.carminecaruso.net/audio/doit.mp3 |
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pepperdean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 650 Location: Johnson City, Texas
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I love it. Maybe, during these times at home, I'll figure out how to post a couple pictures I have of CArmine.
Alan |
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PH Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
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Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:10 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure we ever addressed this part or your question, Chris.
chrisroyal wrote: | ... do you all feel the breath attacks in general are just an impulse (like an exhale) that starts the note or is it a full blow with energy, just less air?... |
Carmine didn't say this. Pat did. I blow my air with the breath attack exactly the same as when starting a note with the tongue. I tell my students that the breath attack is a "pah" or "poo" attack. The sound starts at the lips and the air is just like a "tah". _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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pepperdean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 650 Location: Johnson City, Texas
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Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I differ from Pat in the way I describe the breath attack. I prefer "foo" and here's why:
At my first lesson with Carmine, he began by describing the seven muscle actions that needed timing. Best of my memory - horn pressure against chops, chop pressure against the mouthpiece, lips against each other, the tongue attack, the blow, the twist. At any rate, the breath attack eliminates one of the variables.
Next, I remember Carmine demonstrating putting the lips together and gently blowing as I watched an embouchure form. The harder he blew, the more the embouchure was tensed. I took this as an indication of what I describe as appropriate tension for musical demands, the elimination of excess tension. I always felt this was what Roy Stevens was also about when he had students play ascending "statics" with their horns in the palm of their hands.
I was given the Six Notes as T-T-B and the breath attack was just an additional push of air and not what I think would be an attack created by "poo".
Our interpretations and extensions in our teachings are just that. Carmine was prescriptive. There never was a discussion about "why" or "how". When he saw something that needed addressing, he just gave you the appropriate exercise. Since I'm old and, at the peak of my playing, I did take advantage of some lessons from Roy Stevens, Jerry Callet, and Doc Reinhardt as well. Nevertheless, Carmine was my greatest influence and the teacher who had a no-fail system.
Alan |
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gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:21 am Post subject: |
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This is the Caruso Forum. Critiquing the Caruso Semantics is antithetical to the Caruso Philosophy. So getting all scientific with Caruso Semantics makes me crazy and grouchy.
Have a blessed day,
Gordon Stump _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student
Last edited by gstump on Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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pepperdean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 650 Location: Johnson City, Texas
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Gordon, don't be grouchy. We've been given lots of extra time to play the horn, organize things at home that have gotten away from us, and do yardwork needed this time of year, I think insights and comments providing possible answers without a question are just fine. I'm delighted at the discussion that has taken place in response to my original post. It's personally interesting to hear the comments from Pat, tptpro, and any other Caruso students to see how our experiences may have varied and how we all remember/use/extend the concepts many years later. I would think it may also be valuable to those who were not fortunate enough to take lessons from CArmine.
Stay well.
Alan |
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gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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True believers like me are from the "Don't Think!" school. I do not expect others to drink the cool-aid like me. I was so blessed to be able to study with Carmine.
Too cold for yard work up here but soon the weather will break.
All the best Alan _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student
Last edited by gstump on Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | These types of discussions are always misleading because players do not understand the mechanics involved.
zaferis wrote:
Quote: | I reply as I've had discussions about this recently.
IMO dynamics = amount/volume of air
range = air speed, support of aperture |
Not exactly.
dynamics = air power, (controlled by air pressure, and yes the air flow varies as well)
range=embouchure
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What you say about dynamics about is true, though embouchure and tongue level should be added to the right side of your equation. The Sarah Willis MRI video clearly shows her tongue flatten down as she crescendos on a note and arch upward and forward as she decrescendos on that same note. And though one can't see it, I'm sure her embouchure adjusts as she gets louder or softer on a note. I know mine does.
Concerning your second equation, do you really think that's all there is to range? If so, good luck with that.
The fact is, what we are discussing is a very complicated system. In the end, we don't need to know exactly what each and every muscle fiber is doing as we play from soft to loud, from low to high, and in the reverse directions of each of those. We learn the feel or knack of how to do it all by practicing the correct practice material correctly, with mindfulness of what we are practicing and why we are practicing any given particular exercise.
As my teacher put it, "We learn to play by feel, not by theory." I'm sure Carmine Caruso would agree with that statement.
Best wishes, wash your hands and keep them away from your face,
John |
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: |
As my teacher put it, "We learn to play by feel, not by theory." I'm sure Carmine Caruso would agree with that statement.
John |
Actually, as I came to understand Carmine's approach to tone production and technique, he didn't believe in either "feel" or "theory" as the way we learn to play. A favorite expression of his was, "You can't go by feel." Also, "Don't think" and "Do it." He never talked about the diaphragm, tongue placement, air compression, air flow, corners, reducing pressure, tone, channeling the air. I'm sure there are many more, but I think you can see the point that there really are no parallels between the two.
I only know about Gordon's approach by what I've read here on Trumpetherald, but I can confidently say that there are few similarities between the two teachers. Carmine fully believed in pedal tones, so that would be one area of agreement in principle. But, Carmine had a very different idea on how pedal practice should be implemented. The same goes for how he implemented all the in-common books used such as Clark, etudes, Schlossberg, et al.
And he never cared much about what mouthpiece a student was using. |
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