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Shallow MP Exposes High Note Technique Errors


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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:07 pm    Post subject: Shallow MP Exposes High Note Technique Errors Reply with quote

For the last year I have been struggling to improve my endurance. I went from playing lead with a band that played 35 minute concerts where I could occasionally hand off a tune to one that plays back to back 45 - 60 min sets. I have gotten to where I am good until the middle of the second set.

Now I can play a 125 db DHC and I play 400+ notes above High C in the 35-40 minute chop portion of my 1.5 to 2 hr daily practice sessions. I have performed DHCs in concerts. What is taking me out is the medium high to high Basie type repeating shout sections.

I started by tightening my trumpet some, went from a Wild Thing with a #1 slide to the #2 slide and now I play the Inspiration which is more efficient yet. I then worked on my breathing with Jim Manley, focusing on keeping tension out of my chest. Those items helped but I have been stuck.

Lionel mentioned in this forum how using a shallower MP helped him so I am giving that a try. I use a Wedge MP with a medium shallow cup and a #25 throat on a Warburton Q or KT backbore. I had Dave make me a MP with my rim and his LV cup. The LV cup is a step shallower but with a second cup.

The LV cup is easier to play and it's easier to get a bigger sound with. However, it doesn't allow me for force anything. I absolutely must be backed off and relaxed or I will bottom out and shut off. My medium shallow MP does allow me to get sloppy and force things, which kills my endurance. My biggest issue with trumpet is forcing things and progress for me invariable comes when I back off.

As is to be expected, when I am making the LV cup work I have very little chop strain. I am only a week into this new cup and it will take a couple more for me to get used to it. Meaning I can play it for a bit then have to go back to the medium deep--did that in my concert today. However, I think a shallower cup is the next piece of the puzzle for me.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to be settling on the shallower piece. Interestingly I now find the Wild Thing easier than the Inspiration with the shallower MP. I made it past an hour thirty on the WT before bottoming out and having to switch to the slightly deeper MP in the Inspiration.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that specific mouthpiece characteristics create a uniform result among players.

I played a Reeves 42S (shallow) mouthpiece for more than 20 years in the (erroneous) belief that it enhanced my high register. However, there came a point at which I was bottoming out in the piece. It was very annoying/disconcerting.

So, I kept an open mind and switched to a 43M (medium cup and 1/64th inch wider than the 42S). My range and endurance didn't suffer and my sound got a lot bigger. Then I switched to a 43D (deep cup) and, again, there were no range or endurance issues and my sound got even bigger, fuller and more powerful. I've stayed with the 43D ever since.

I know that the popular belief is that this, that and some other cup diameter, cup depth, backbore, drill hole, rim width, rim contour, alpha angle, etc. is supposed to produce/enhance some specific result. What all these variations are supposed to do and whether you actually like the changes and whether they really work for you and improve things are, each and all, different topics.

I think that most players can do well with many mouthpieces of varying characteristics as long as the mouthpieces match up with the personal physiology of the player and variances from mouthpiece to mouthpiece aren't too drastic.

We see a lot of recommendations of specific mouthpieces here on TH but whether such recommendations are best for any given individual player is a shot in the dark. What one player raves about may be a disaster for another player. The most you can say is "this worked for me." The amount of objective knowledge such a recommendation carries is uncertain from player to player.

My own belief is that there are no "magic" mouthpieces and lengthy mouthpiece safari's say more about the deficiencies the player is hoping to cure just by changing the mouthpiece (the "magic" mouthpiece) than they do about the ability of the player to discern and actually experience dramatic and carefully/accurately predicted improvements with a certain mouthpiece alone.

Successful results on trumpet are far more a factor of correct and strong fundamentals in execution than they are a factor of equipment. Equipment is grossly over-emphasized and over-sensationalized as critical factors in creating high level results. A great player will sound great on any decent trumpet in good working condition using any mouthpiece that fits the player.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautiful post with in it something for almost everybody.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great read. I keep going back to that tired old shoe analogy: Buying a pair of Air Jordans, size 20 or whatever, does not give me the ability to play pro basketball. Or even amateur basketball. The durn shoes just do not fit me.

Ask about horns, mouthpieces, or shoes and you'll get a cross section of what works for everybody else. You can probably pick out some trends. Finding the one that works best for you personally is still up to you.

HERMOKIWI wrote:
I don't think that specific mouthpiece characteristics create a uniform result among players.

I played a Reeves 42S (shallow) mouthpiece for more than 20 years in the (erroneous) belief that it enhanced my high register. However, there came a point at which I was bottoming out in the piece. It was very annoying/disconcerting.

So, I kept an open mind and switched to a 43M (medium cup and 1/64th inch wider than the 42S). My range and endurance didn't suffer and my sound got a lot bigger. Then I switched to a 43D (deep cup) and, again, there were no range or endurance issues and my sound got even bigger, fuller and more powerful. I've stayed with the 43D ever since.

I know that the popular belief is that this, that and some other cup diameter, cup depth, backbore, drill hole, rim width, rim contour, alpha angle, etc. is supposed to produce/enhance some specific result. What all these variations are supposed to do and whether you actually like the changes and whether they really work for you and improve things are, each and all, different topics.

I think that most players can do well with many mouthpieces of varying characteristics as long as the mouthpieces match up with the personal physiology of the player and variances from mouthpiece to mouthpiece aren't too drastic.

We see a lot of recommendations of specific mouthpieces here on TH but whether such recommendations are best for any given individual player is a shot in the dark. What one player raves about may be a disaster for another player. The most you can say is "this worked for me." The amount of objective knowledge such a recommendation carries is uncertain from player to player.

My own belief is that there are no "magic" mouthpieces and lengthy mouthpiece safari's say more about the deficiencies the player is hoping to cure just by changing the mouthpiece (the "magic" mouthpiece) than they do about the ability of the player to discern and actually experience dramatic and carefully/accurately predicted improvements with a certain mouthpiece alone.

Successful results on trumpet are far more a factor of correct and strong fundamentals in execution than they are a factor of equipment. Equipment is grossly over-emphasized and over-sensationalized as critical factors in creating high level results. A great player will sound great on any decent trumpet in good working condition using any mouthpiece that fits the player.

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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post Hermokiwi! I believe Doc Severinsen said “if you can’t do it on a 7C, you can’t do it.” (Of course I cant do it on a 7C, so...)
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys have completely missed my point, meaning I have wasted my time.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
You guys have completely missed my point, meaning I have wasted my time.



For a rather long time I tried shallow C cups but bottomed. Also during a couple of years I used mpc:.s with smaller diameter (16,25mm) Since I also play front row cornet a very long search made me finally arrive at using V cups for the lead playing (by no means I´m in your league rangewise, but I do have a very good endurance, for the kind of music you refer to).
The cornet pieces are somewhat V ish and I can play almost as high with them, but the more shallow, although V cupish trumpet mpc gives me at least one tone higher - and I do not tire. Turned out that the Stork VM6 (16,25) I used had to give way to the Schilke 14B. (I would love to test a Stork VM6 17,00 mm in diameter) But the rims of the Schilkes are alike.
The Wick has a better cornet sound but in times with a lot of trumpet gigs the rim becomes awkward
So my conclusion is that with a more shallow mpc you do not tire that quickly as you would have with a deeper - not necessarily do you become able to reach higher, probably you will gain a tone or two. But - V cups prevent the bottoming out. Still providing a big fat warm sound.
Not that I disagree with the other posters here - but one size does not fit all.
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now I can play a 125 db DHC and I play 400+ notes above High C in the 35-40 minute chop portion of my 1.5 to 2 hr daily practice sessions. I have performed DHCs in concerts. What is taking me out is the medium high to high Basie type repeating shout sections.


Your statement of the problem might also contain the answer. The stuff you’re practicing helps you start individual notes above high c. What do you practice to help you play actual music around high c?
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
You guys have completely missed my point, meaning I have wasted my time.


So, clarify. Every communication has an underlying basis/motive known only to the communicator. We are not mind readers. What, exactly, is your point? What is the underlying basis/motive? What is the nature of the responses you expected and/or anticipated and/or desired?
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JVL
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think INTJ was not waiting for answers, but only shared his experience.
Or maybe i'm missing his point too ?
best
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVL wrote:
i think INTJ was not waiting for answers, but only shared his experience.
Or maybe i'm missing his point too ?
best


Right, the High Range department here is not for discussions, it's a showoff place for the very few non-suckers of this forum. So read, take your loss, count your blessings and keep silent.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

125db DHCs? And in you hit them in concert? Where are your gigs? I'm sold. I'll be your next fan.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read some of the responses to the OP, and thought to myself, "They missed the point."

Now the OP has confirmed it.

Basically, the OP is talking about the small mouthpiece effect. I also talk about it in the BE book. The idea is that playing on a smaller or shallower mouthpiece can help you to improve your lip focus and play higher easier. Once that focus is obtained - it can take weeks or months - the focus becomes independent of the mouthpiece, and a variety of mouthpiece sizes can then be used.

I don't use this technique much any more, as the BE exercises tend to cover the same territory. But I have used it successfully with many students in the past.

Jeff
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a similar fashion, I have recently downsized to a slightly narrower, shallower mouthpiece in an effort to improve efficiency.

One of the things I noticed on my old mouthpieces is that when my chops got tired I sort of "stuffed them in the mouthpiece," so to speak. Obviously that can get you through a tough gig, but it's hardly ideal from a technique standpoint.

My plan with the shallower/narrower mouthpiece is that it will help me keep my chops OUT of the cup and thus promote precisely the efficiency that the OP is referencing.

Now, I'm certainly not a big band lead player any more, and I haven't played a DHC since I was in college. Nevertheless, it's my hope that slightly smaller gear will help me improve focus without my chops going in the mouthpiece which will aid in endurance and a more powerful sound.

Eh???
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had the opposite experience -- using a larger mouthpiece forces me to rely more on lip/mind control and less on squeezing the mouthpiece to play higher and/or louder. The end result is similar -- too small, press to hard, sound cuts off; too large, press too hard, sound cuts off, probably for different physical reasons. That said I have played with smaller mouthpieces, and do appreciate the way they can force you to focus in, should probably do more of that.

However, I did have somewhat the same initial impression as delano, a guy talking about how he magically found the secret sauce and wanted to be sure everyone knew. I've become jaded over the years with endless posts having the subtle, or not so subtle, emphasis on high range and the divide between those who do and those who don't and it's hard not to read "so I'm inferior because I can't play 125 dB double-high C's on demand" into such posts.

As for wasting time by posting on the Internet, meh... Irony abounds.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm amazed that you can play any note at 125 decibels! I can get to about a 100 and that's in the middle upper register.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any reference to "decibels" is incomplete without specifying the distance. 125 dB measured at 10 cm is typically equivalent to 105 dB measured at 1 m.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, but I can’t even break 101 with the reader right beside my bell. 125 at any distance is insane!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.hearnet.com/at_risk/risk_trivia.shtml
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