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Schilke 14a4a mouthpiece good for Jazz beginners?


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Champloo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:08 pm    Post subject: Schilke 14a4a mouthpiece good for Jazz beginners? Reply with quote

Hello,

Is the Schilkje 14a4a suitable for starting jazz?
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What style of jazz? Small combo jazz is considerably different from, say, Maynard Ferguson or Stan Kenton big band jazz. What exactly are you looking for, and what are you hoping get from a 14a4a?

I saw a post where you stated you have been playing for two years, if that’s accurate, you might consider staying with something mid range, along the lines of maybe a Bach 5C, possibly a 3C. The 14a4a was developed specifically for Forrest Buchtel, a highly accomplished experienced lead player. My opinion is that players still developing should avoid specialized equipment....or for that matter, becoming overly concerned with equipment period. Lessons and practice!

Brad
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those players mentioned above are not "Jazz" players, they are "Lead" players who play jazz. If you don't know the difference then maybe a middle of the road mouthpiece is what's needed for the time being, not a specialist mouthpiece.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No!!!
That is a very specialized mouthpiece for experienced upper register players.
Over the years, it has been altered a bit to make it easier (playable) for more players.
It isn't for a novice player and was never meant for them.
Other Schilkes such as the 8 to the 13 sizes may be a better match.
Many other manufacturers such as Reeves, GR, Stork, Hammond, and Pickett to name just a few make terrific mouthpieces. Some are quite costly others are much more reasonably priced.
What size you play now is important to know as you may want to stay in that general size area.
R. Tomasek


Last edited by Vin DiBona on Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
No!!!
.........
R. Tomasek


+1.😉

I might be mistaken, but I believe even Forrest Buchtel said what R. Tomasek
mentioned, that the 14a4a was very specialized and was never intended as an all around mouthpiece. It’s CERTAINLY not for students.

Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For jazz you'll probably want a general-purpose piece that allows you a broad pallet of expression. The Schilke ?A4a pieces are generally for most players is pretty narrow and specialized for a bright sound, and for some an easier upper register. Sure there are a small number of players who can do most anything on such a shallow tight piece but most can't. I'd advise a young developing player to avoid them.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
No!!!
That is a very specialized mouthpiece for experienced upper register players.
Over the years, it has been altered a bit to make it easier (playable) for more players.
It isn't for a novice player and was never meant for them.


THIS! Over and over and over and over again.. NOT a mouthpiece for the masses.. a VERY specialized piece.

Find and stay with a middle of the road mouthpiece and use it for all you're working on - it's not the mouthpiece.

If you like the Yamaha/Schilke 14 size.. go with a Yamaha 14B4 and use it for everything.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:
No!!!
That is a very specialized mouthpiece for experienced upper register players.
Over the years, it has been altered a bit to make it easier (playable) for more players.
It isn't for a novice player and was never meant for them.


THIS! Over and over and over and over again.. NOT a mouthpiece for the masses.. a VERY specialized piece.

Find and stay with a middle of the road mouthpiece and use it for all you're working on - it's not the mouthpiece.

If you like the Yamaha/Schilke 14 size.. go with a Yamaha 14B4 and use it for everything.


What he said.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No! But 5 posts in 9 minutes are good for the marketplace.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this case, the OP listed a WTB ad in the marketplace.

And one thing that certainly doesn’t help this situation is the music retailers that will actually recommend a 14a4a to a kid, it’s happened in my area. I understand that they are in business to sell products, and a part of the problem is the fact their corporate decision makers choose to have their stores stock these specialized mouthpieces. I guess you can’t and probably shouldn’t try to protect buyers from themselves.

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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So just to be clear....no 14a4a?
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
So just to be clear....no 14a4a?


Hmm, well, I don’t know, do you think that’s the consensus?😉😉

Brad
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allen vizzutti plays a 14a4a and plays classical jazz and lead on it.
Yamaha use to include it with one of their horns. If a beginner learned in one they would have very little lip intrusion which is a good thing.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
theslawdawg wrote:
So just to be clear....no 14a4a?


Hmm, well, I don’t know, do you think that’s the consensus?😉😉

Brad


I played on a 13a4a all through high school after I switched from a 1 1/2C (yep!). I played lead with it, I played classical with it, I played jazz solos on it. I just adjusted my air, and energy with what style I needed to play. Since I was primarily a lead player, that was my mouthpiece of choice. When I was playing first chair classical, I just adjusted my playing to blend in as best as I could.

Of course, this was back when you didn't switch mouthpieces. Also, I couldn't afford to buy other things to experiment, but even if I did, I would have no clue what to buy anyway as a teen.

My teacher did not like me using it (from the 1 1/2c) but understood all the variables, and we just made it work. I could not play lead on that big piece. Just didn't work for me, but I could play lead on a 13a4a and adapt to other styles with it.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
theslawdawg wrote:
So just to be clear....no 14a4a?


Hmm, well, I don’t know, do you think that’s the consensus?😉😉

Brad


I played on a 13a4a all through high school after I switched from a 1 1/2C (yep!). I played lead with it, I played classical with it, I played jazz solos on it. I just adjusted my air, and energy with what style I needed to play. Since I was primarily a lead player, that was my mouthpiece of choice. When I was playing first chair classical, I just adjusted my playing to blend in as best as I could.

Of course, this was back when you didn't switch mouthpieces. Also, I couldn't afford to buy other things to experiment, but even if I did, I would have no clue what to buy anyway as a teen.

My teacher did not like me using it (from the 1 1/2c) but understood all the variables, and we just made it work. I could not play lead on that big piece. Just didn't work for me, but I could play lead on a 13a4a and adapt to other styles with it.


I think anyone can make almost anything work, and it sounds as if you were a fairly serious student who practiced.
I think an inexperienced student COULD make a specialized lead mouthpiece work, but I still believe it’s best for an inexperienced player to stick with a moderate size, which includes not going too large and deep either. The reality is many kids today are fortunate to have access to good equipment, I say keep them on moderate, non specialized mouthpieces if at all possible.

Brad
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
theslawdawg wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
theslawdawg wrote:
So just to be clear....no 14a4a?


Hmm, well, I don’t know, do you think that’s the consensus?😉😉

Brad


I played on a 13a4a all through high school after I switched from a 1 1/2C (yep!). I played lead with it, I played classical with it, I played jazz solos on it. I just adjusted my air, and energy with what style I needed to play. Since I was primarily a lead player, that was my mouthpiece of choice. When I was playing first chair classical, I just adjusted my playing to blend in as best as I could.

Of course, this was back when you didn't switch mouthpieces. Also, I couldn't afford to buy other things to experiment, but even if I did, I would have no clue what to buy anyway as a teen.

My teacher did not like me using it (from the 1 1/2c) but understood all the variables, and we just made it work. I could not play lead on that big piece. Just didn't work for me, but I could play lead on a 13a4a and adapt to other styles with it.


I think anyone can make almost anything work, and it sounds as if you were a fairly serious student who practiced.
I think an inexperienced student COULD make a specialized lead mouthpiece work, but I still believe it’s best for an inexperienced player to stick with a moderate size, which includes not going too large and deep either. The reality is many kids today are fortunate to have access to good equipment, I say keep them on moderate, non specialized mouthpieces if at all possible.

Brad


I don't disagree.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
... music retailers that will actually recommend a 14a4a to a kid,
... and a part of the problem is the fact their corporate decision makers choose to have their stores stock these specialized mouthpieces. ..

------
And of course, the product listings from Schilke (and the Yamaha version) mention what a wonderful mouthpiece they are. WITHOUT any info about the type of concerns that TH people seem to think is the appropriate use, and restrictions.

Jay
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
... music retailers that will actually recommend a 14a4a to a kid,
... and a part of the problem is the fact their corporate decision makers choose to have their stores stock these specialized mouthpieces. ..

------
And of course, the product listings from Schilke (and the Yamaha version) mention what a wonderful mouthpiece they are. WITHOUT any info about the type of concerns that TH people seem to think is the appropriate use, and restrictions.

Jay


Ok. I totally understand that the manufacturers and resellers are in business to sell products, and I really don’t expect them to discourage students from buying what they make/sell, nor would I expect them to print “Warning, not for use by students” in their descriptions. But there are plenty of mouthpieces in the Schilke lineup, since we’re taking about Schilke, that would be better for students, and the retailers would make the same profits on a Schilke 12 as a 14a4a.

Brad
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Schilke 14a4a mouthpiece good for Jazz beginners? Reply with quote

Champloo wrote:
Hello,

Is the Schilkje 14a4a suitable for starting jazz?


No.

Before I began private study with Claude Gordon, in one of our phone conversations he asked me what mouthpiece I was playing on. I answered, "A Schilke 14A4A." (I was young and dumb). To this he replied, "I want you to take that mouthpiece into your back yard and bury it!"

He always gave me great advice, and this was possibly the best of the best.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
Allen vizzutti plays a 14a4a and plays classical jazz and lead on it.


That's about as anecdotal as one can get. Actually, that is as anecdotal as one can get.
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