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Champloo New Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2019 Posts: 5 Location: Raleigh
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:08 pm Post subject: Schilke 14a4a mouthpiece good for Jazz beginners? |
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Hello,
Is the Schilkje 14a4a suitable for starting jazz? _________________ Champloo |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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What style of jazz? Small combo jazz is considerably different from, say, Maynard Ferguson or Stan Kenton big band jazz. What exactly are you looking for, and what are you hoping get from a 14a4a?
I saw a post where you stated you have been playing for two years, if that’s accurate, you might consider staying with something mid range, along the lines of maybe a Bach 5C, possibly a 3C. The 14a4a was developed specifically for Forrest Buchtel, a highly accomplished experienced lead player. My opinion is that players still developing should avoid specialized equipment....or for that matter, becoming overly concerned with equipment period. Lessons and practice!
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Those players mentioned above are not "Jazz" players, they are "Lead" players who play jazz. If you don't know the difference then maybe a middle of the road mouthpiece is what's needed for the time being, not a specialist mouthpiece. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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No!!!
That is a very specialized mouthpiece for experienced upper register players.
Over the years, it has been altered a bit to make it easier (playable) for more players.
It isn't for a novice player and was never meant for them.
Other Schilkes such as the 8 to the 13 sizes may be a better match.
Many other manufacturers such as Reeves, GR, Stork, Hammond, and Pickett to name just a few make terrific mouthpieces. Some are quite costly others are much more reasonably priced.
What size you play now is important to know as you may want to stay in that general size area.
R. Tomasek
Last edited by Vin DiBona on Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | No!!!
.........
R. Tomasek |
+1.😉
I might be mistaken, but I believe even Forrest Buchtel said what R. Tomasek
mentioned, that the 14a4a was very specialized and was never intended as an all around mouthpiece. It’s CERTAINLY not for students.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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For jazz you'll probably want a general-purpose piece that allows you a broad pallet of expression. The Schilke ?A4a pieces are generally for most players is pretty narrow and specialized for a bright sound, and for some an easier upper register. Sure there are a small number of players who can do most anything on such a shallow tight piece but most can't. I'd advise a young developing player to avoid them. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2309 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | No!!!
That is a very specialized mouthpiece for experienced upper register players.
Over the years, it has been altered a bit to make it easier (playable) for more players.
It isn't for a novice player and was never meant for them. |
THIS! Over and over and over and over again.. NOT a mouthpiece for the masses.. a VERY specialized piece.
Find and stay with a middle of the road mouthpiece and use it for all you're working on - it's not the mouthpiece.
If you like the Yamaha/Schilke 14 size.. go with a Yamaha 14B4 and use it for everything. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | Vin DiBona wrote: | No!!!
That is a very specialized mouthpiece for experienced upper register players.
Over the years, it has been altered a bit to make it easier (playable) for more players.
It isn't for a novice player and was never meant for them. |
THIS! Over and over and over and over again.. NOT a mouthpiece for the masses.. a VERY specialized piece.
Find and stay with a middle of the road mouthpiece and use it for all you're working on - it's not the mouthpiece.
If you like the Yamaha/Schilke 14 size.. go with a Yamaha 14B4 and use it for everything. |
What he said. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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No! But 5 posts in 9 minutes are good for the marketplace. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:18 am Post subject: |
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In this case, the OP listed a WTB ad in the marketplace.
And one thing that certainly doesn’t help this situation is the music retailers that will actually recommend a 14a4a to a kid, it’s happened in my area. I understand that they are in business to sell products, and a part of the problem is the fact their corporate decision makers choose to have their stores stock these specialized mouthpieces. I guess you can’t and probably shouldn’t try to protect buyers from themselves.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:00 am Post subject: |
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So just to be clear....no 14a4a? _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:46 am Post subject: |
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theslawdawg wrote: | So just to be clear....no 14a4a? |
Hmm, well, I don’t know, do you think that’s the consensus?😉😉
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2641 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Allen vizzutti plays a 14a4a and plays classical jazz and lead on it.
Yamaha use to include it with one of their horns. If a beginner learned in one they would have very little lip intrusion which is a good thing. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | theslawdawg wrote: | So just to be clear....no 14a4a? |
Hmm, well, I don’t know, do you think that’s the consensus?😉😉
Brad |
I played on a 13a4a all through high school after I switched from a 1 1/2C (yep!). I played lead with it, I played classical with it, I played jazz solos on it. I just adjusted my air, and energy with what style I needed to play. Since I was primarily a lead player, that was my mouthpiece of choice. When I was playing first chair classical, I just adjusted my playing to blend in as best as I could.
Of course, this was back when you didn't switch mouthpieces. Also, I couldn't afford to buy other things to experiment, but even if I did, I would have no clue what to buy anyway as a teen.
My teacher did not like me using it (from the 1 1/2c) but understood all the variables, and we just made it work. I could not play lead on that big piece. Just didn't work for me, but I could play lead on a 13a4a and adapt to other styles with it. _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:33 am Post subject: |
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theslawdawg wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | theslawdawg wrote: | So just to be clear....no 14a4a? |
Hmm, well, I don’t know, do you think that’s the consensus?😉😉
Brad |
I played on a 13a4a all through high school after I switched from a 1 1/2C (yep!). I played lead with it, I played classical with it, I played jazz solos on it. I just adjusted my air, and energy with what style I needed to play. Since I was primarily a lead player, that was my mouthpiece of choice. When I was playing first chair classical, I just adjusted my playing to blend in as best as I could.
Of course, this was back when you didn't switch mouthpieces. Also, I couldn't afford to buy other things to experiment, but even if I did, I would have no clue what to buy anyway as a teen.
My teacher did not like me using it (from the 1 1/2c) but understood all the variables, and we just made it work. I could not play lead on that big piece. Just didn't work for me, but I could play lead on a 13a4a and adapt to other styles with it. |
I think anyone can make almost anything work, and it sounds as if you were a fairly serious student who practiced.
I think an inexperienced student COULD make a specialized lead mouthpiece work, but I still believe it’s best for an inexperienced player to stick with a moderate size, which includes not going too large and deep either. The reality is many kids today are fortunate to have access to good equipment, I say keep them on moderate, non specialized mouthpieces if at all possible.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | theslawdawg wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | theslawdawg wrote: | So just to be clear....no 14a4a? |
Hmm, well, I don’t know, do you think that’s the consensus?😉😉
Brad |
I played on a 13a4a all through high school after I switched from a 1 1/2C (yep!). I played lead with it, I played classical with it, I played jazz solos on it. I just adjusted my air, and energy with what style I needed to play. Since I was primarily a lead player, that was my mouthpiece of choice. When I was playing first chair classical, I just adjusted my playing to blend in as best as I could.
Of course, this was back when you didn't switch mouthpieces. Also, I couldn't afford to buy other things to experiment, but even if I did, I would have no clue what to buy anyway as a teen.
My teacher did not like me using it (from the 1 1/2c) but understood all the variables, and we just made it work. I could not play lead on that big piece. Just didn't work for me, but I could play lead on a 13a4a and adapt to other styles with it. |
I think anyone can make almost anything work, and it sounds as if you were a fairly serious student who practiced.
I think an inexperienced student COULD make a specialized lead mouthpiece work, but I still believe it’s best for an inexperienced player to stick with a moderate size, which includes not going too large and deep either. The reality is many kids today are fortunate to have access to good equipment, I say keep them on moderate, non specialized mouthpieces if at all possible.
Brad |
I don't disagree. _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | ... music retailers that will actually recommend a 14a4a to a kid,
... and a part of the problem is the fact their corporate decision makers choose to have their stores stock these specialized mouthpieces. .. |
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And of course, the product listings from Schilke (and the Yamaha version) mention what a wonderful mouthpiece they are. WITHOUT any info about the type of concerns that TH people seem to think is the appropriate use, and restrictions.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | ... music retailers that will actually recommend a 14a4a to a kid,
... and a part of the problem is the fact their corporate decision makers choose to have their stores stock these specialized mouthpieces. .. |
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And of course, the product listings from Schilke (and the Yamaha version) mention what a wonderful mouthpiece they are. WITHOUT any info about the type of concerns that TH people seem to think is the appropriate use, and restrictions.
Jay |
Ok. I totally understand that the manufacturers and resellers are in business to sell products, and I really don’t expect them to discourage students from buying what they make/sell, nor would I expect them to print “Warning, not for use by students” in their descriptions. But there are plenty of mouthpieces in the Schilke lineup, since we’re taking about Schilke, that would be better for students, and the retailers would make the same profits on a Schilke 12 as a 14a4a.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9828 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Schilke 14a4a mouthpiece good for Jazz beginners? |
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Champloo wrote: | Hello,
Is the Schilkje 14a4a suitable for starting jazz? |
No.
Before I began private study with Claude Gordon, in one of our phone conversations he asked me what mouthpiece I was playing on. I answered, "A Schilke 14A4A." (I was young and dumb). To this he replied, "I want you to take that mouthpiece into your back yard and bury it!"
He always gave me great advice, and this was possibly the best of the best.
Cheers,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9828 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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lipshurt wrote: | Allen vizzutti plays a 14a4a and plays classical jazz and lead on it. |
That's about as anecdotal as one can get. Actually, that is as anecdotal as one can get. |
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