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New XLR mic for trumpet + trombone: dynamic vs ribbon?


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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you recommend if I were recording trumpet and piano in a room?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming a good room, at least 20 by 20 get a steep pair of mics as about 8 feet away and up high point down a bit. Experiment with placement to get trumpet and piano balance. Do t ru to have a mic on the trumpet and a mic on the piano, you will get phasing on one or two note that will make the trumpet sound like a straight mute. Probably only on a range of something like middle e flat to f natural. Could be really pronounced.

Cheap MXL 603s would sound surprisingly good, for 70 bucks each.

It’s harder than you think to find a really good room by the way.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming a good room, at least 20 by 20 get a steep pair of mics as about 8 feet away and up high point down a bit. Experiment with placement to get trumpet and piano balance. Do t ru to have a mic on the trumpet and a mic on the piano, you will get phasing on one or two note that will make the trumpet sound like a straight mute. Probably only on a range of something like middle e flat to f natural. Could be really pronounced.

Cheap MXL 603s would sound surprisingly good, for 70 bucks each.

It’s harder than you think to find a really good room by the way.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there benefit in adding additional mics other than the two around the room?
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. A further point on mics and preamps, condenser mics use phantom power*.

Don't have the phantom power on if you're running another kind of mic through the pre like a dynamic or ribbon, they don't need it and there's the potential of frying them. Also with a condenser, have the phantom off when you plug the mic in. Only turn the phantom on after the mic is securely plugged in, and turn it off before you unplug the mic. Because I said to, that's why.

*I'm sure there's a reason it's called that, couldn't cite what that reason is.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
Is there benefit in adding additional mics other than the two around the room?

There could be, I wouldn't overly complicate things at first. Probably best to stick to a simple setup and see how that goes, see what kind of results you get, get a feel for it.

Here's a couple of examples of mixing mics I mentioned previously that also addresses recording piano.

There are many ways to record a piano, this is one way. You could probably get very similar results with much less expensive mics.


Link

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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
Is there benefit in adding additional mics other than the two around the room?

There could be, I wouldn't overly complicate things at first. Probably best to stick to a simple setup and see how that goes, see what kind of results you get, get a feel for it.

Here's a couple of examples of mixing mics I mentioned previously that also addresses recording piano.

There are many ways to record a piano, this is one way. You could probably get very similar results with much less expensive mics.


Link

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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome. Thank you so much for the education on this.
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BraeGrimes
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It really does depend on the sound you're going for, but a decent ribbon mic is probably the 'best' for recording contemporary music. With multiple mics, etc, it depends on the room - in a dead, flat room, ribbon will probably get best results from a ribbon, closely followed by a good quality condenser mic (if you record on multiple instruments and in multiple scenarios, and use a mic live, then a condenser with a switchable pattern will work great) - For Trumpet

Other instruments, depends - if you're going to be in the same room, depends on how live the room is, but I'd mic a piano separately and in a few areas if practical/possible.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So a ribbon and condenser is a good combo?
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
So a ribbon and condenser is a good combo?

It can be.

Something that's important to be aware of is that types of mics have different characteristics.

Condensers typically capture a broader frequency spectrum - if you want to capture "sizzle", nuances of breathiness, the high frequency elements of a particular instruments.

Dynamic and ribbon mics generally have less high frequency sensitivity, which you might want if you want to cut back on sizzle.

This video is a comparison of three mic types on a variety of instruments including trumpet. However the condenser he's using isn't as bright as some condensers, the difference is more dramatic when he goes to the ribbon mic in the comparisons.

There are endless Youtube videos on recording related topics - software, hardware, mics/mic shootouts. I recommend watching lots and lots of them.


Link

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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good stuff.

I’ve been perusing a couple sites for mics to include Guitar Center Used which actually has a ton of great used mics.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for grins a couple more demos of the MXL-990 that I have online on Google Drive. A player applet should come up. You probably want to turn the volume slider down maybe halfway or so, they're recorded fairly hot.

Flugel by itself to get a better idea of what it sounds like through the mic.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0zvAZXgfLgiOWkzWHJMckFLZUU/view?usp=sharing

Various samples of solo and harmony vocals, also the horn section taken from the "Believe" recording linked above.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17-VGW4rYv1ux8N4p64SBg4lyzvBcyv66/view?usp=sharing

The "Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is" vocal from the sampler above sitting in a mix. Only the solo vocal is recorded with the MXL mic.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0zvAZXgfLgiWjFKSVhFd2hCOUU/view?usp=sharing
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert, Thank you! Again, great stuff.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another point - a low price isn't necessarily a valid indicator. For example i got those MXL-990's for something like $49 each on super cheapie sale, I was curious how good such cheap mics would sound. Turns out they work amazingly well.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: New XLR mic for trumpet + trombone: dynamic vs ribbon? Reply with quote

Dutch Guy wrote:
Hello guys,

I'm starting a little home recording studio. Got the room ready, got the computer set up with a Focusrite Scarlett interface, and did some experimenting with a cheap clip-on microphone. I am ready to buy something that I can attach to a stand, and actually sounds good and works good for trumpet and trombone recording.

At first I was going to go for the Shure SM58, for its low price and good reviews. Then I saw some video's on ribbon microphones, and man, those sound good. It made the SM58 sound bright and unnatural, whereas the ribbon sounded so alive. Living in Europe, I have to rely on online stores based in Europe to prevent insane taxes, so I went onto the Thomann website. Turns out, they have a nice ribbon microphone from their own brand (T.bone), the T.bone RB 500, priced at 99 euros. They also have a RB 100, and RM 700, priced at 69 and 89 respectively.

Sadly, I know nothing about this kind of stuff. What would you guys recommend for doing multitracks with trumpet/flugelhorn/trombone/baritone? I'm doing it on the attic, with the possibility to do limited acoustic treatment. There is a PC that makes some noise as well.

Your answer doesn't have to be limited to the microphones I mentioned. Lets say I have a budget of 150 euros, with a bit more if it really is significantly better than the other options.


I think microphone choice for trumpet players comes down to four main factors: budget; what kind of player you are and what type of sound you play with; what type of music you plan to record with it; and how professional you want or need it to sound. Ideally you'd have at least several different mics for different styles and mic placements, or depending on factors like whether you are recording as a soloist or as part of an ensemble or horn section. But if you only have the budget to start with one, you should get one that gives you the tone and EQ profile that works best for the type of music you are recording. If you record a lot of different types of stuff, you should choose the one that will give you the most versatility (for example, you might be able to get several different sound profiles out of just one mic depending on where you place it in relation to your bell, proximity effect, temporary room treatment, etc.)

For your stated budget, an SM58 honestly isn't a bad choice. While designed mostly to be a live vocal mic, its a pretty versatile and affordable dynamic mic. There's a reason you'll almost always see one if not several of them on just about every stage. It sounds good on a lot of different instruments and voices, its durable, and it can handle high SPL sources like brass instruments. If you buy one, you'll inevitably find a use for it, whether in your home studio or live. I own one and while I don't record trumpet with it often, I do like it if I'm recording brighter punchier horn section stuff. It cuts through the mix in a nice way without sounding overly harsh. It is on the bright side though, which is why I'd prefer an SM57 in most live situations, and many horn players use them for recording too. I find them to be a little darker sounding, especially if you swallow the mic, you can get a wider variety of proximity effects with the 57. However I also find them to have a bit more of a compressed sounding low-mid range, so I don't love them for recording, I'd prefer to record with a 58 in most situations if those were my only two choices. My favorite dynamic mic for trumpet is the Beyerdynamic M88. I bought one several years ago, mostly for use on live gigs, as I find these mics give the most warm low end presence back at you in the monitor, which can be lost with other mics on loud amplified stages. But to my surprise, I find that its my go-to mic for recording at home too for many situations. It is designed for low end sources like kick drums and bass cabinets, so it has a really nice round low-end warmth to it and good presence while still sounding pretty accurate and true for a dynamic mic. This might be out of your budget, but they've come down in price quite a bit since I bought mine, looks like Thomann has them for around 235 euros at the time I'm writing this. I paid over $300 for mine back in the day. I like the way this sounds better than most super cheap ribbon mics I've tried. If you are looking for a more "classical" trumpet sound from your mic, this might not be the right choice, but I like it for recording rock pop jazz and commercial stuff. In general, dynamic mics might be a good choice for you since it sounds like you have a high noise floor in your room, with computer hum etc. They tend to be more directional and isolated, and less sensitive, so they won't pick up noises like your computer. More sensitive condenser mics and ribbon mics on the other hand, might pick up those noises, but they do tend to give you a more accurate sound. I have an Audio Technica 2035, which would be in your budge at around 120 euros, and I use it quite a bit. It's not perfect for trumpet, but with the right EQ it can be really nice, especially as a room mic or when paired with another mic. It's on the bright side but can capture a more brilliant tone with further proximity, or an intimate breathy tone with close proximity. They are good condenser mics for the money. There are a lot of other compelling choices in this price range in this category too, including some of those Chinese-made ones that are pretty decent.

As far as ribbon mics go, the good ones tend to sound the most warm and natural on trumpet. If I had $1000+ to spend, I'd definitely go ribbon mic for most trumpet applications. The Royer 121's are great, I've recorded entire records on those in pro studios. They are just expensive. My favorites are the old RCA 77's or 44's, they just sound like butter on trumpet, but you'll usually only find those in pro studios unless you have lots of disposable income. I've personally had a hard time finding an inexpensive ribbon mic that I thought sounded great on trumpet. I've played on some decent ones, but nothing for less than the $700-800 range that blew my mind. A lot of people like the Cascade ribbon mics (not sure if they are available in Europe) and while I think they are good for the money, they always sound a little dead on trumpet, like they don't have enough enough presence or dynamic range. Same for other ribbon mics I've tried in this price range. That being said, there are plenty I haven't tried, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are good ones out there, I just don't have one to recommend personally. That being said, some of those cheap chinese ribbon mics do sound pretty ok considering how cheap they are.

My advice would be to try some different options out if you can...if mail order is your only option, order one, test it out, if you love it keep it, if you don't, send it back and exchange it for something else as long as there is a return policy. As others have suggested, try lots of different mic techniques, placements, and proximities, and play around with EQ in your recording software to get the sound profile you want. A little EQ can go a long way in compensating for less expensive microphones!
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Chris#
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been running a recording studio a while ago and kept most of the microphones.

My favorites for trumpet are:

Royer 121 (ribbon)
Neumann TLM-170 (condenser)
Sennheiser MD-441 (dynamic)

The Royer is the gold standard for trumpet recording. For good reason.

From my experience the technology (ribbon/condenser/dynamic) has no or very little relevance for the selection of the right microphone.

Arturo Sandoval sounds great on "There will never be another you" using a 441 dynamic mic (YouTube...)

I don't see that the Shure SM-57/58 and I will be friends (ever). The SM-58 is a great live vocal mic. Period. Trumpet always sounds too harsh to me on it. Also for Rock or Funk brass sections there better alternatives IMHO. Also in the low budget area.

The Thomann house brand stuff typically has a good quality for few bucks. I'd not expect a to pay 100 bucks and get the quality and sound of a Royer. But it might have a better sound on trumpet that a SM-58. Plus you don't pay for the Shure (and SM-58...) brand name...

To the OP: I'd order 3 mics at Thomann and send back what you don't like. They cover the shipment to you and back. You can't go wrong with that.
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