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Trumpetingbynurture
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 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:38 am Post subject: Jazz Improv Lessons via Skype |
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Hi All,
I'm just wondering if anyone has had any success connecting with an improvisation teacher through Skype?
If so, could anyone recommend any good teachers doing that?
And on the subject of learning Jazz, I've heard James Morrison talk about this topic a few times and his philosophy and how they teach at his own jazz academy and it resonates with me as a learner and with my interest in Jazz (as something you do and a language you speak rather than a set of musical formulas that can be used to produce an acceptable solo), and is how I think I would learn best:
| Quote: | | Our focus is on demonstrable results and we have developed a concept for learning that concentrates on the experience of the musician whilst making music, rather than the more traditional concept of theory based learning. This is not to say that theory is at all ignored but that it is used to explain the experience rather than to lead one to it - an important distinction that changes the game for music education. |
[Source: https://www.jamesmorrisonacademy.com/philosophy]
Is this something that is possible to 'grok' through Skype? |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Jazz Improv Lessons via Skype |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | | And on the subject of learning Jazz, I've heard James Morrison talk about this topic a few times and his philosophy and how they teach at his own jazz academy and it resonates with me as a learner and with my interest in Jazz (as something you do and a language you speak rather than a set of musical formulas that can be used to produce an acceptable solo). |
My own philosophy matches yours. In my opinion jazz improvisation is best learned the same way you learned to speak language. My belief is that the formal study of music theory is no more necessary to the development of skill in jazz improvisation than the formal study of grammar is necessary to the development of the ability to speak language.
You could speak language fluently before you even learned to read. You had no concept of verbs, nouns, adverbs, pronouns, adjectives, prepositions, etc., etc. Your ability to speak language fluently was not dependent on any knowledge of any theory related to speech.
My belief is that the most direct route to fluency in jazz improvisation follows the same path: Imitate, assimilate, innovate (Clark Terry's three steps to the development of skill in jazz improvisation). You listen. You imitate. You assimilate. You innovate.
The great jazz licks may (or may not) have been created through the study of theory and may be explainable by theory but they can also be explained simply as sequential pitches and relative pitches within a rhythmic context.
You may not be able to play that Clifford Brown lick but you can probably sing it after hearing it a few times, all without any knowledge of its basis in theory. So, if that's the case, why can't you play it on your horn just as easily? The reason is because, where your horn is concerned, it's like a foreign language which you haven't yet assimilated. In contrast, you can easily hear sounds and imitate them with your voice because you have assimilated that ability.
As a further reference point here's a link to a video in which Marvin Stamm discusses this concept:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY6CEeVT35M
So, that brings me to your question about Skype lessons in jazz improvisation. If you've already assimilated a reasonable degree of ability to just pick up your horn and play what you hear (in other words if you've assimilated a reasonable degree of ability to play by ear), then I think Skype lessons can take you farther. Until then, however, you don't possess the foundational skill (a reasonable degree of ability to play by ear) to be very effective in developing the ability to spontaneously and consistently produce good truly improvised solos.
If you want to develop high level skill in jazz improvisation you have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run. If you want to be fluent you have to learn the language before you learn the vocabulary. The "language" is the ability to spontaneously play on your horn what you hear, the ability to accurately reproduce by ear what you hear in the way of sequential pitches and relative pitches within a rhythmic context. The "vocabulary" is the ability to put it all together (the licks, the sequences, the flow, the expressiveness) that turns "language" into great solos.
Learning the language is a slow process just as learning to speak was a slow process. Other than directing the player in ways to learn the language I don't see Skype lessons (or any lessons) to be of much value in developing this basic skill. It is a self taught skill just as learning to speak was a self taught skill. The student can be set on the correct course but, ultimately, the student teaches themselves to develop the basic ability to play by ear. Skype lessons (and other lessons) would be beneficial in raising the student who has developed the "language" to the next level: Developing "vocabulary."
Please understand, this is a controversial subject. Many people feel that the study (or at least the knowledge) of theory is a necessary component (or at least a vital component) of developing skill/fluency in jazz improvisation. I simply do not agree. Apparently Marvin Stamm also doesn't agree. Apparently James Morrison also doesn't agree. That being said, I think all of us agree that the study and knowledge of theory can be beneficial to developing the ability to improvise even if we don't all agree that such study/knowledge is vital or even necessary.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: Jazz Improv Lessons via Skype |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: |
So, that brings me to your question about Skype lessons in jazz improvisation. If you've already assimilated a reasonable degree of ability to just pick up your horn and play what you hear (in other words if you've assimilated a reasonable degree of ability to play by ear), then I think Skype lessons can take you farther. Until then, however, you don't possess the foundational skill (a reasonable degree of ability to play by ear) to be very effective in developing the ability to spontaneously and consistently produce good truly improvised solos.
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It depends how fast the line is. If we're talking Chet Baker or Mile, I can do it fairly easily, although not flawlessly by any means. If we're talking Clifford playing 16ths, then no way without slowing it down. |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:26 am Post subject: |
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Hermonkiwi, that is a really interesting video and I'm embarrassed that I didn't really know Stamm much before this (now I'm listening).
Right around the 6 minute mark he talks about folk who want to learn to improv and he gives the example of a player in his/her late 20s with 12-14 years of background who makes the intellectual decision to learn but really struggles. I would guess this includes OP and a lot of us on this forum (adult players interested in learning a new mode of playing). He contrasts it with the younger player who falls in love with the music and is willing to make mistakes and try stuff.
It does strike me as a challenge in both music and language to get enough sound in your ears to hear better and to distinguish small differences. To take the language metaphor farther, I'm not sure of the best way to go from learning an alphabet to making and self-correcting simple phrases, to putting together sentences, to speaking coherently to being able to present lectures or complex ideas in a foreign language. I'm listening to more jazz and have one of the core texts and go to the local jazz pub but I'm also prepared for the possibility that at my age the number of people who become good at improv is probably pretty small. |
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Getting back to the original question, yes it is possible to benefit from Skype lessons for Jazz improv. I have taken a few improv lessons from Charlie Porter and they were very helpful. He has a few Youtubes on improvisation, you can get a "free mini-lesson" or two there to see if you like it: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=charlie+porter+improvisation. I have seen several other people offering improv lessons via Skype, not having tried them myself I can't personally endorse any others but I am sure there are plenty of excellent folks.
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kozzicomma
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Joined: 27 Dec 2018
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Jazz Improv Lessons via Skype |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Please understand, this is a controversial subject. Many people feel that the study (or at least the knowledge) of theory is a necessary component (or at least a vital component) of developing skill/fluency in jazz improvisation. I simply do not agree. Apparently Marvin Stamm also doesn't agree. Apparently James Morrison also doesn't agree. That being said, I think all of us agree that the study and knowledge of theory can be beneficial to developing the ability to improvise even if we don't all agree that such study/knowledge is vital or even necessary. |
I'm sure there's gotta be people who really believe that theory is necessary, but everyone I've EVER talked to about improvisation has agreed with the likes of Marvin Stamm and James Morrison, as you say. Even the guys learning/inventing this stuff to begin with, back in the day, were doing it all the same way for the most part: imitate, assimilate and innovate. You gotta learn to play by ear, you just have to, no questions asked. Then learn to write it down. Whichever way you do it, if it's intervals, then great, but preferably actual notation. But honestly, it doesn't matter, just find a way to write it down. Then assimilate the solo, learn it by heart and learn it in all 12 keys, if possible, or at least 4 or 5 common keys. Last part of assimilation is using the material in your own solos successfully. Then innovate. Take the overall idea and find a way to make it your own, or just use it as a skeleton for a new idea. |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote: | Hermonkiwi, that is a really interesting video and I'm embarrassed that I didn't really know Stamm much before this (now I'm listening).
Right around the 6 minute mark he talks about folk who want to learn to improv and he gives the example of a player in his/her late 20s with 12-14 years of background who makes the intellectual decision to learn but really struggles. I would guess this includes OP and a lot of us on this forum (adult players interested in learning a new mode of playing). He contrasts it with the younger player who falls in love with the music and is willing to make mistakes and try stuff.
It does strike me as a challenge in both music and language to get enough sound in your ears to hear better and to distinguish small differences. To take the language metaphor farther, I'm not sure of the best way to go from learning an alphabet to making and self-correcting simple phrases, to putting together sentences, to speaking coherently to being able to present lectures or complex ideas in a foreign language. I'm listening to more jazz and have one of the core texts and go to the local jazz pub but I'm also prepared for the possibility that at my age the number of people who become good at improv is probably pretty small. |
I think how long it takes depends largely on the approach you take. The heart and soul of jazz improvisation is the melodic line. So the primary foundational objective is to learn to stay within the melodic line.
The "melodic line" is the chord structure of the melody. Staying within the melodic line is what the bass player does behind the solos. So a good exercise to train yourself to stay within the melodic line is to imitate the bass player. Start out practicing just one note per measure until every note is within the melodic line. Then progress to two notes per measure. Then four. Then eight. Then sixteen.
The idea of this exercise isn't to play great solos while doing it (although you might play some great solos while doing it). The idea is to learn to maintain the melodic line flawlessly by ear.
Bill Evans said, "There are no wrong notes in jazz, only wrong resolutions." In other words, you can play anything and it will be fine as long as you can resolve it back to the melodic line.
So, what happens if you're unable to maintain the melodic line? If you can't maintain the melodic line you're going to have difficulty staying on course in improvisation. Going outside the chord is common in jazz improvisation (it's done intentionally by skilled players and unintentionally by unskilled players) but it has to be resolved back to the melodic line in order for it to work. The skilled player can resolve it every time. The unskilled player resolves it infrequently and often just by accident. Within that context the ability to maintain the melodic line is the difference between "cool" and "intellectual" and "knowing where you're going" on the one hand and "lost," "confused" and "incoherent" on the other hand.
Most players never follow an organized discipline to train themselves to maintain the melodic line by ear. Instead, they typically dive right into licks or, put another way, they focus on "vocabulary" without a sufficient foundation in "language." So, what they develop is islands of licks without the ability to connect the islands into a unified statement. What we typically hear are licks separated by confusion/jagged in and out playing while searching for the melodic line.
It can take a long time to develop the skill to flawlessly maintain the melodic line by ear. I think it's reasonable to expect it to take at least a year of diligent practice. It took most of us more than a year to learn to talk. The process of learning to maintain the melodic line by ear involves the same process as learning to talk. You can't reasonably expect the process to take any less time. You have to be patient. You also have to be diligent.
Once you have the skill to flawlessly maintain the melodic line by ear you can advance rapidly to develop "vocabulary". People have an enormous ability to imitate what they hear and, ultimately, assimilate what they imitate. If you were born and raised in China you'd become fluent in speaking Chinese by the same process a person born and raised in any other country becomes fluent in speaking their native language. You hear. You imitate. You assimilate. In terms of developing the ability to speak your native language it's an amazingly rapid process considering the complexity of learning to speak language.
The same is true of speech nuances. A southern accent is developed through this process. So is a British accent. So are all other accents.
Applying this to developing "vocabulary", if you listen enough to a certain player and imitate that player enough you will begin to assimilate elements of the style of that player. Your playing will begin to reflect that player's "vocabulary." The speed with which this happens is influenced by how much you listen and how much you imitate. Of course, it's also influenced by your general skill on the horn and your individual rate of learning/assimilation/retention. So, by listening and imitating a lot the player can speed up their individual process of developing "vocabulary."
In the musical "The Music Man" the concept of Professor Harold Hill's "Think System" is a running joke. In the real world of jazz improvisation, however, the "Think System" is essentially what the great players use: They can spontaneously play what they hear in their minds. They develop this skill through the same process they used to develop the ability to speak language.
In the case of music it's essentially a two step process: (1) Develop skill in "language" by learning to flawlessly maintain the melodic line by ear, followed by (2) develop skill in "vocabulary" by listening, imitating and assimilating.
If you want to become highly skilled in improvisation you have to recognize that the two steps are sequential and not concurrent. If you jump into trying to develop "vocabulary" before you've developed "language" you significantly reduce your chances of ever developing fluency. It would be hard to imagine a truly fluent improvisational player who does not have a strong foundation in "language," who does not have the skill to flawlessly maintain the melodic line by ear.
An excellent example of a player's ability to simply maintain the melodic line by ear is Clifford Brown's recording of "Autumn In New York." The recording is over 21 minutes long and features several soloists. There is just one running theme: Maintaining the melodic line. There is very little "out" playing and any "out" playing is brilliantly resolved back to the melodic line. Maintaining the melodic line is all these players are thinking about as they go through the chord changes. As an example of "language" listen to it not for its artistic ("vocabulary") content but, instead, for its mechanics in maintaining/resolving to the melodic line ("language").
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robbo
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Something that Morrison used to make quite clear in his earlier days when asked about practice was that he basically didn't. I think that he more or less just went to band a lot, and jammed a lot. (Musical family). I really don't think that he sat in a room and practiced jazz much at all. And..... look where that got him  .
He's a freak of nature (in a very good way), and I think that he was born with an ear that absorbed what he heard and it comes out very naturally. I'm also very confident that there's a graveyard of players that believe that it's best to "just play", to find that it doesn't come out that easily and eventually give up.
Always bare in mind that of the few great players that we know there were thousands practicing the same way. The ones that came out on top were very gifted. (Worked hard of course).
Some players may just be happy to see a set of changes and be able to do something with them.
I spent about 10 years just playing by ear. (starting at 15 years old). Being shown the bebop scale and a few II V patterns changed my life!!
So...I believe that a few (theoretical) pointers along the way can help the process.
(Oops, got off the Skype topic and onto my soap box sorry!).
Rob
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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I think both of the above make a lot of sense. I was reading on Wymton Marsallis and also read a Miles Davis biography and both grew up in very musical families, which I think must make a huge difference for ear training, and also seems to be true of Morrison. If you grow up hearing scales and arpeggios and etudes or jazz standards, dad playing at the club, etc., it's very possible you have thousands of ours of listening by the time you get serious in your teens.
I don't know how true the 10,000 hour rule is in Jazz, but for many of us newbies are still about 9900 hours away from getting there
We also live in a world where you don't have to choose. You can play out of books, and go to clubs, and watch performances on youtube. In many ways it's a golden age, maybe the golden age of music.
I am curious about OPs question of what methods work for new players in bridging the gap between getting started and really playing. Who's an ideal teacher for someone like Stamm's experienced adult player wanting to work their way into improvisation. |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all,
So far the only recommendation is Charlie Porter. He's certainly someone I will consider, but was wondering if there were more suggestions out there?
Thanks! |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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I've thought about doing the same thing.
Rich Willey offers them: https://www.boptism.com/product-category/online-music-lessons/
Jason Kobnak (who does Lick of the Day on youtube) offers courses that include 1:1 time https://jasonklobnak.com/
There are other folk I know on here who have posted great materials and might be a match. I think people list in profiles if they teach. I am surprised more people haven't volunteered themselves. |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| I also honestly wish there was a section of the marketplace where folk could offer lessons. I think there would be interest. |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote: | I've thought about doing the same thing.
Rich Willey offers them: https://www.boptism.com/product-category/online-music-lessons/
Jason Kobnak (who does Lick of the Day on youtube) offers courses that include 1:1 time https://jasonklobnak.com/
There are other folk I know on here who have posted great materials and might be a match. I think people list in profiles if they teach. I am surprised more people haven't volunteered themselves. |
I own a bunch of Rich's books actually!
Kobnak sounds interesting. I see he has some sort of course. Have you tried it? |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:14 am Post subject: |
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I haven't tried it. There was a guy on youtube, Nick McLean, who was also trying to pull off an online group lesson https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwVGgW4zAN8NRbm9OtsbQBg
I think it's hard to find the right level, because there really are a lot of us who would kind of enjoy working in that direction, but are seriously deficient in every area (theory, exposure, practice hours). There's so much "I don't know I don't know." I'm still at the youtube 'n fake book level.
That said, I hope you find a good teacher and a good path and definitely let us know how it goes. If there are jazz teachers here on any level, please jump in too. |
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Drklobz
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:29 am Post subject: |
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For some reason, this thread hasn't been up when I've logged on/visited (which hasn't been often this semester due to teaching/performing schedule) so I'm just now seeing it.
80% of my teaching outside of the college has been done via Skype the past 5 years. HaveTrumpetWillTravel mentioned I have a course online as well, which gives you access to all of my materials for less than what a typical local hour-long lesson costs (including 1-on-1 and discounted regular lessons). I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.
Also; I have a Black Friday deal next week that's 30% off my first book for anyone that might be interested (those that take that offer also get a discount off of a lesson too).
Jason
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All other info on me is at http://jasonklobnak.com or http://jazztargeting.com |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Drklobz wrote: | For some reason, this thread hasn't been up when I've logged on/visited (which hasn't been often this semester due to teaching/performing schedule) so I'm just now seeing it.
80% of my teaching outside of the college has been done via Skype the past 5 years. HaveTrumpetWillTravel mentioned I have a course online as well, which gives you access to all of my materials for less than what a typical local hour-long lesson costs (including 1-on-1 and discounted regular lessons). I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.
Also; I have a Black Friday deal next week that's 30% off my first book for anyone that might be interested (those that take that offer also get a discount off of a lesson too).
Jason |
Hi Jason,
Is the deal just on Black Friday itself?
Let me know when the deal goes live and I'll grab a copy! |
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Drklobz
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