• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Tune-Up kits



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 1902
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:48 am    Post subject: Tune-Up kits Reply with quote

It's about time to refresh some parts of my Yamaha 6345 (the original one in 0.463 bore, no G no H).
Mouthpieceexpress sells for that purpose Horn Flush Tune-Up kits (the PRO version). My question: I can have these kits with brass valve guides or with synthetic valve guides. Now I have the synthetic ones on my horn so can I expect some improvement (and in what?) by buying and using the brass valve guides?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shofarguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 6510
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Tune-Up kits Reply with quote

delano wrote:
It's about time to refresh some parts of my Yamaha 6345 (the original one in 0.463 bore, no G no H).
Mouthpieceexpress sells for that purpose Horn Flush Tune-Up kits (the PRO version). My question: I can have these kits with brass valve guides or with synthetic valve guides. Now I have the synthetic ones on my horn so can I expect some improvement (and in what?) by buying and using the brass valve guides?


This is one of those questions where different people have different answers, each as passionate as the opposing view.

Flip Oakes changed the valve guides in my Benge 5X from Delrin to brass when he performed his Total Enhancement on it the first time I met him. It did a few things. It made a sharper click sound when the valves seated into the guide grooves in the valve casings. It added a certain amount of resonance to the core sound that I could hear from behind the bell. It made any tell tale bouncing of the valve guide audible.

Did they affect the sound from the horn that any audience could hear? Who knows? Did they make slotting more definite? I can't say, because the horn needed its valves rebuilt and slides refitted at that time and for sure those things had a far more drastic effect on how the horn played. Would I rather have the Delrin guides? No. I didn't really matter to me one way or the other.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2165

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do changes like this make a measurable/noticeable difference? Some people seem to think so. However, is "thinking so" genuine authentication? Not necessarily.

Something doesn't have to really change in order for some people to think it has changed. Maybe they notice/pay attention to something more so it seems different. Maybe it's wishful thinking. Maybe it's reality. It depends on a lot of variables and subjective tendencies.

Then there is the question of whether the "change" is beneficial or detrimental. That's also a "perception vs. reality" question.

My own feeling about this is not directed to potential changes. My own feeling is directed toward what I feel is a very detrimental approach to improvement: The idea that results are highly influenced by equipment.

Players can get addicted to equipment and equipment changes as a primary method to improve results. It can be very difficult to break this habit because so much hope is attached to it and so much effort is put into analyzing things like this and trying hard to support it logically.

I'm not adverse to psychosomatic "improvement." There's a lot of mind-over-matter things that can be reasonably related to the belief and resultant motivation that you are improving in some way. There can be legitimate benefits to believing you're improving, especially in the form of increasing your satisfaction//motivation. So, the idea that tweaking something actually changes nothing but makes you think something has changed can ultimately create positive results (although I wouldn't expect them to be significant in reality, at least very soon).

As an example, when my father bought me a new Burbank Benge 3X in 1966 to replace my 1962 Olds Recording I thought I got a better sound on the Benge and it was a source of pride to be playing such an exclusive and well regarded trumpet.

The reality was probably a lot different than the perception. An Olds Recording is a wonderful trumpet. I may have gotten a different sound on the Benge but whether it was a "better" sound is debatable. The Benge did, however, inspire me to more practice. So, ultimately, it was probably a positive change (although not a necessary change in and of itself).

Over the years I've heard just about everything in terms of tweaking horns and mouthpieces and getting that one instead of that other one, etc. with the promise/belief that I'd experience a big improvement if I'd just jump in. Well, none of it ever really materialized the way it was promised/predicted. Things may have been a little different, but were they "better?" Usually, "Meh." The biggest difference was usually that I looked cooler because I was conforming to what other players were saying.

Wasn't it Claude Gordon who said something to the effect that "You can sell a trumpet player anything if you attach a high note to it."? Well, the idea that a change creates an improvement is not necessarily accurate but some players have to try it for themselves in order to reach conclusions satisfactory to them. The danger, as I've said, is becoming addicted to the idea that equipment and equipment changes are a primary method to improve results. We all wish they were, including me. They just aren't.

If you're playing a decent trumpet in good working condition and a mouthpiece that is reasonably matched to your physiology your equipment isn't limiting you to any significant degree. Believing otherwise and falling down the rabbit hole can cost you years of frustrating stagnation and buckets of money.

There's a lot of good, adequate equipment available that can work. That being said, the primary mechanics of excellence and proficiency in playing trumpet are provided by the player, not by the equipment.

My advice is change things if you'd like to change them and tweak things if you'd like to tweak them but don't get addicted to the idea that equipment and equipment changes/tweaks are a primary method to improve results.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2643
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a player and repair technician with over 40 years experience, changes in material of valve guides can make a difference in feel (feedback) to player, and in some instances timbre. The real question is does the choice serve YOUR musical goals? Do you prefer more or less resistance, greater or lesser slotting? Only you can answer these questions. At the price of new guides it's a small investment to find out what works for YOU. Heck, I've even gone so far as to heat treat brass guides for effect, and I can tell you that too makes a difference. Does that mean brass is better? No, just different. Worth noting Yamaha YTR-8335LA has nylon guides, not brass like all their other professional models. I say go for it and find out for yourself.

And if that weren't enough, you can include water key pad material and lever screw tension also contribute to feel and timbre as well. Without naming names, we've had world class players in our shop that can attest to this. No joke.

My two cents.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 1902
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
As a player and repair technician with over 40 years experience, changes in material of valve guides can make a difference in feel (feedback) to player, and in some instances timbre. The real question is does the choice serve YOUR musical goals? Do you prefer more or less resistance, greater or lesser slotting? Only you can answer these questions. At the price of new guides it's a small investment to find out what works for YOU. Heck, I've even gone so far as to heat treat brass guides for effect, and I can tell you that too makes a difference. Does that mean brass is better? No, just different. Worth noting Yamaha YTR-8335LA has nylon guides, not brass like all their other professional models. I say go for it and find out for yourself.

And if that weren't enough, you can include water key pad material and lever screw tension also contribute to feel and timbre as well. Without naming names, we've had world class players in our shop that can attest to this. No joke.

My two cents.


I know about the key pad material and the tension of the screws and I have no idea brass valve guides will serve MY goals. The problem is I have to order them in the USA and then they go through customs here in Holland and I have to pay 28% taxes on purchase AND transport and the paper to fill that all in will be 17 dollar. So I feel some need to order the right (?) tune-up kit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2643
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
I know about the key pad material and the tension of the screws and I have no idea brass valve guides will serve MY goals. The problem is I have to order them in the USA and then they go through customs here in Holland and I have to pay 28% taxes on purchase AND transport and the paper to fill that all in will be 17 dollar. So I feel some need to order the right (?) tune-up kit.


These kits are a collection of individual parts packaged by the seller. If you purchased your Yamaha trumpet in Holland then your dealer has access to these parts, no need to turn to a US seller.

Good luck.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 1902
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I will try but up to now I can't order this in Holland, they want me to bring the horn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2643
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Thanks, I will try but up to now I can't order this in Holland, they want me to bring the horn.


Since the Yamaha parts lists are very specific including serial number ranges to reflect when design changes occurred, it makes a certain amount of sense the dealer could want to confirm all pertinent information before ordering. However, all professional models guides are interchangeable so that’s a moot point. Only student models with single slots in casings are not interchangeable with pro model valve guides.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 1902
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks mr. Becker, next week I'll take the train with my trumpet and will collect the necessary Yamaha items. It's not only the felts, springs and guides but I also need a valve button, so I am going to fit everything in a shop. I know about the two types of valve guides and if they have the brass ones I am going to try them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 1979
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: Tune-Up kits Reply with quote

delano wrote:
My question: I can have these kits with brass valve guides or with synthetic valve guides. Now I have the synthetic ones on my horn so can I expect some improvement (and in what?) by buying and using the brass valve guides?

Good question, and lots of interesting answers. Let me add another perspective. I have no idea if brass vs plastic guides do anything to the sound I produce. I'll leave that question to others.

But I do know that the brass guides are noisier. Not by much, but there's more clanking with the brass guides. I switched to plastic valve guides on my 3 Bach Strads, to make the valve action quieter.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Prestage
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 551
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 on the noise. When I tried brass guides in my Bach, I ended up swapping them back. I couldn't perceive a benefit (that I was confident wasn't in my imagination!) and the noise was just an irritating reminder of more money wasted on gear tweaks...

Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2643
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get it, less noise and no perceived difference makes nylon (or delrin) valve guides attractive. In fact, I used to think nylon was an upgrade to Bach trumpets until one of our very accomplished clients* complained his trumpet didn’t feel right after swapping them out during a cleaning service. He asked me to put back his brass guides, and what do you know? Everything he was accustomed to feeling and hearing returned. Lesson learned.

And as I previously stated, this does not necessarily make one better than the other, just different. It cannot be overstated that how an instrument feels has a direct impact on how you approach it, changing your technique, and therefore your sound. Since the greatest change is in articulations and much of your sound is defined by the front end of the note, it makes sense that how you shape your articulations matters.

This is why it’s so important that in my job I pay close attention to every small detail. Listening to our customers and accommodating their specific needs.

Having “cut my teeth” in the trenches of school band instrument repair, I realized in order to further my knowledge and skills I needed to find an environment where that was possible. Now after 30 years at Osmun Music I’ve encountered many world class players. I continue to learn from this experience, I love my job!


*Joe Foley is a graduate of Boson University, founding member of internationally acclaimed Atlantic Brass Quintet, Principal trumpet with Rhode Island Philharmonic and Portland (Maine) Symphony, frequent plays with the BSO and Pops, Boston Ballet, and many others.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group