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3rd valve slide use


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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject: 3rd valve slide use Reply with quote

I saw Chris Botti a couple of nights ago and really enjoyed it. I know he plays a vintage Martin. I was surprised that he doesn't have a 3rd valve ring on his trumpet. I've read about this some before but I had a number of questions and thought you all might have some thoughts:
- It seems like 3rd slide becomes less feasible the faster you are playing. Is this true? At what speed do you really use your slides? (I definitely use them on half/whole notes but basically don't on sixteenth and eighth notes.)
- Do you know other good players that just don't use the slides? Can you personally hear the difference on those next to you who use/don't use their slides?
- Does there tend to be a difference in slide use on legit vs jazz playing? I could see exact intonation being more important when playing written pieces over improvisation, etc.
- Any tips on dialing in tuning using 1st/3rd slide? I have a 1949 Olds Ambassador without 1st and 3rd rings but both slides can be adjusted.
- How do learn correct pitch on the notes that tend to be flat or sharp? I've tried a digital tuner and found it only slightly helpful.

Just curious if anyone has additional thoughts on that, either in an "accepted best practices" sense or that has been personally helpful to them.[/list]
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some great apps on apple store Tessitura, relative pitch, and tonal harmony, I use my iPad but I think they all have windows equals. All are ear trainers, and I use them to train my ear to accurately find pitch as a basis for improv. Maybe they would work for your app too.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is quite easy to bend the low D and D-flat to pitch for a skilled player. Of course slide use is also easy for sustained pitches.

In certain keys you can examine the musical phrase and put the slide in the position in advance of a phrase for best use. If it does not affect other notes of significance.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The martin trumpet he's playing has a 3rd slide that is actually longer than what we usually see now. Bach trumpets were some of the earliest to have the shorter 3rd slide that require extending to play low D and C sharp in tune. Most trumpets up until about the 50's had long 3rd slides that were a Compromise length. Ab and Ed were flat the same amount that D and C sharp were sharp.

I have many vintage conns, and if i intend to use them as "players" i cut the 3rd slide 5/16 shorter, and get the slide working real good. That way it feels like a "bach" when you go through chromatics etc, and the intonation is what is typical (better maybe) that what we have now.

you can hear Botti having Flat upper Ab's on the sting live record he's on. Not to bag on him but you can hear it. He plays a repetitive background figure with an Ab in it. He plays great on that record by the way, of course.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
The martin trumpet he's playing has a 3rd slide that is actually longer than what we usually see now. Bach trumpets were some of the earliest to have the shorter 3rd slide that require extending to play low D and C sharp in tune. Most trumpets up until about the 50's had long 3rd slides that were a Compromise length. Ab and Ed were flat the same amount that D and C sharp were sharp.

I have many vintage conns, and if i intend to use them as "players" i cut the 3rd slide 5/16 shorter, and get the slide working real good. That way it feels like a "bach" when you go through chromatics etc, and the intonation is what is typical (better maybe) that what we have now.

you can hear Botti having Flat upper Ab's on the sting live record he's on. Not to bag on him but you can hear it. He plays a repetitive background figure with an Ab in it. He plays great on that record by the way, of course.


Please clarify 2nthings for me since you know vintage Conns.
I have a super mint 30’s Conn 8B Gustat and I have always heard that the 1st and 3rd valves were of a larger bore in order to help intonation but were otherwise normal- I have verified that they measure as spec’d but I have never read from a reliable source that intonation was the reasoning. This horn is also said to have a special bell material only used on this model and I have to say that it has huge core harmonics And that it has excellent intonation but does not really fit my sound concept being a bit more symphonic than I care for, but excellent intonation, I’ve never even been tempted to use a ring on that horn. I take lessons from a principal trumpet in the Symphony and he loves the horn but has too many himself. Was this intended to be a symphonic horn as I know Gustat was St Louie principal, but that he also taught Miles who certainly wasn’t classical? I bought it because it is so beautiful and had recently been resilvered. I wish all these guys had kept notes about these different things they tried and the results. Can you confirm what I said about the horn, seems like little is known about this very hi end horn? PM or e-mail me @ a4audinut@gmail.com
Thanks,
Rod
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use of an electronic tuner does not always result in the best sounding pitch. The electronic pitches are based on equal-temperament 'piano tuning' - and most wind-band pitches are more related to 'natural' intervals - 'just-temperament'. Also the best pitches for various notes is DIFFERENT depending on the key of the chord they are part of.

Just play different scales so that the relative intervals all sound 'good'.

Jay
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chrisneverve
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a lesson with Botti in 2007 or 2008. He was a student of Bill Adam. We spent the whole lesson on his version of the Adam routine and the concepts he was taught. During the Routine, he mentioned several times that he was taught to fix the pitches with his chops and not the slides. His Ds and C#s were perfectly in tune.

So, if you don’t need the slides, don’t use them. He seems to have success without.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is very basic, but play a chromatic scale starting on your F# below the staff. When you hit C#, then D, if you listen you can tell how much to adjust without using the slide, or if you do use it, you should still be able to hear how much you need to move it.
Again, very basic, but I would rather do that type of ear training as opposed to looking at a tuner.

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Last edited by Brad361 on Fri May 03, 2019 11:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And don't forget throwing the slide all the way out and easily getting an F below low F# that sounds like a real note.
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boog
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On valve brass, the shorter instruments such as trumpets and cornets are relatively easy to "lip" the 1-3 and 123 valve combinations down to get the notes in tune. Also, to me, 2-3 valve combinations and several 1st valve notes are a tad sharp. Depending on what you are playing, it might be easier to "lip" the pitch down, OR use slides to compensate, especially on longer tones.

On lower pitched (larger) brass. such as Euphonium and Tuba, the "sharpness" of the above valve combinations is exacerbated, because of the greater length and diameter of the tubing. This is why the so-called "compensating" valve port systems were invented. Professional level low brasses also use a 4th and even 5th valve installation to allow for alternate fingerings to add tubing for intonation purposes on certain pitches, especially in the lower register.

My old Getzen 3-valve Euph is MUCH harder to "lip" in tune than my trumpets and cornets, so I installed rings on the 1st and 3rd valve slides to allow extending them "on the fly". Really necessary to get the ole gal to play in tune.

Also, some of my trumpets are fairly easy to play in tune with 1-3 and 123 valve combos without extending the slide. Others are not so accommodating.

My low brass harmony instruments all require adjustments for certain notes via the use of slide extending mechanisms. Paradoxically, my old beat-up Bach "marching" baritone plays pretty well in tune throughout it's range...go figure.

Most valve trombones in the classic configuration are really a struggle to play in tune. I always marveled at Bob Brookmeyer's excellent intonation on these beasts...

Most of you brass players on this board already knew this, or not..

Dave
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KRHafer
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:28 pm    Post subject: 3rd Slide Placement Reply with quote

I will sometimes pull the 1st slide out about 1/8th an inch when I'm playing faster passages that use low D to avoid moving the 3rd slide. (I have an older horn that doesn't have a 1st valve ring nor trigger. Eb can be bent easily, and middle Bb, F on top of the staff, and high Bb all tend a little sharp anyway on most horns and are usually bent down with airflow.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curious. Anyone use the first valve slide instead of the third valve slide for adjusting the D and C# pitches?
Using and not using slides has been discussed, but not this.
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use my first valve slide for 90% of my slide movements. I only use the third when I have to. I was always slow and awkward with the third valve slide. One day my teacher had me try using the first valve slide instead of the third. For me, it was instant magic. There are certain situations where I need to use the third, but I much prefer the first slide. It has to do with my preferred left-hand grip. I move the third slide with my ring finger. Instead of changing my grip, my teacher just had me try the first slide. He told me of other pro players who use the first slide too. I can't remember their names though. Using the first slide works great for me!
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lexluther wrote:
I use my first valve slide for 90% of my slide movements. I only use the third when I have to.


This is what I do also. It started when the trumpet I was playing some years ago had a slow third valve slide. I discovered that I was much faster and more accurate with the first valve slide. Even after I got the third valve slide working well, I found the first to be easier. There are times when I need the third, but I only use it when it is the only option.

lexluther wrote:
I move the third slide with my ring finger.


I do too. Do others use the little finger? Anyone. I have messed around a bit trying to find a more comfortable way to use the third valve slide, but have not come up with anything satisfactory for my hands. I remember when I was a kid with my Olds Ambassador, I adjusted the slide ring to fit my way of moving the third valve slide, but with the distance of the fixed rings on most trumpets, it is not as good. I guess I could have one moved. What do others do? (Never had a trumpet with a trigger, but that is intriguing too.)
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Bill_Bumps
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cgaiii"]
lexluther wrote:
I have messed around a bit trying to find a more comfortable way to use the third valve slide, but have not come up with anything satisfactory for my hands. I remember when I was a kid with my Olds Ambassador, I adjusted the slide ring to fit my way of moving the third valve slide, but with the distance of the fixed rings on most trumpets, it is not as good. I guess I could have one moved. What do others do? (Never had a trumpet with a trigger, but that is intriguing too.)


There's an adjustable finger loop on my horn's third-valve slide, but I have a hard time using it. My fingers are fairly short and thick, which doesn't help at all. I tried using my middle finger, which works, but for some reason left my finger sore, stiff and swollen. I know you're supposed to use the ring finger, but mine just isn't long enough, and using it doesn't leave enough room for the other fingers on the horn body. I'm currently using my index finger, which seems to be an acceptable -- if not optimum -- compromise.

My horn (a Selmer K-mod) has a first-valve trigger. But I usually "lip" the appropriate notes into shape, rather than using it. Maybe I should.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
Curious. Anyone use the first valve slide instead of the third valve slide for adjusting the D and C# pitches?
Using and not using slides has been discussed, but not this.


I do, started using the first slide in college. When I’m teaching kids I use the third, primarily because that’s what they are taught to do in band classes, so I try to “stay with the program”. Funny, but I even find myself using the third slide sometimes on a gig, I guess because I am in the habit from lesson teaching. Most of my gigs parts these days seldom go below the staff, so it’s not much of an issue.
The kids are also taught to use both the first and third for C#, my opinion is that is awkward, especially for little kids with small hands. That I don’t do.

But generally, even though sometimes using the first slide for the C# also requires a bit of lip adjustment, I think using the first slide is a bit easier. Not a tremendous amount difference though.

Brad
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walldaja
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used my third valve slide on Db / C# for decades. When I play my cornet, I end up using my first valve slide for the same notes. Mechanically for me I just have difficulty getting the third one out with my hand closer to my face. Even had the slide loosened by a tech, and it's plenty loose, but still problems moving it with the ring finger. Tried using my index finger but didn't like that either. Solved it by using the first valve slide. I don't have a problem when switching horns. On the cornet it is the first valve slide, on trumpets the third valve slide, and on flug the trigger.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you see photos of Clifford Brown holding his Blessing Super Artist you see that he doesn't have a finger in the third valve slide ring. I think because of the nature and flexibility of improvised jazz adjusting the slides is less critical than in a symphonic situation. I'm strictly a jazz player. I adjust the slides only on very long sustained notes.
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JoeLoeffler
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a symphonic/ classical situation, it is not an option. You must use your slides to maintain an even timbre through the range of the horn. Bending pitches around, even if they end up “in tune”, sound different to the notes around them. Also, bending makes it very hard to play cleanly in passages where you move across notes needing correction in a string of notes that do not (in both fast and slow tempi). The preparation to bend can mess up the note before and the unbending can mess up the note after causing chips and other funnybusiness.

If you are accustomed to using the horn to do the majority of the adjusting for you, it is second nature and allows you great freedom and flexibility in just “how” you play a note.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For much of my early life, I used the 3rd slide whenever I needed to make an adjustment. Many years later when I found my way into lessons I noticed that my teacher favored the 1st slide. Naturally, I started mimicking his approach, even when he used it for notes that I didn't use to adjust. Nowadays I'm pretty agnostic. I typically don't move any slide for passing notes. When a slide is needed, I use whatever comes to mind. If it's tricky enough I'll take a few moments and figure out which slide movements gives me the best results.
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