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mm55
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 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Just to be clear, | JVL wrote: | | ... validated by a world known trainer & teacher, and ex international athlete |
Is not the hallmark of science; quite the opposite, in fact.
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Jaw04
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | I have watched the videos by Paul. He really does not explain exactly what he means by the sigh breath. Perhaps he means using only the elastic recoil of full lungs for air pressure. He may be discussing the inhalation or an attempt to drop the jaw or open the throat. He simply does not make that clear or explain it thoroughly.
What IS clear is that he believes that resistance creates air pressure (it doesn't) and that air pressure determines pitch (it doesn't).
Jaw04 wrote: | Quote: | | Thinking about sighing is a great way to prevent overblowing, because a sigh is a natural function we do without even thinking about it. We breathe in and the air just goes out in a relaxed effortless way. When I think of "blowing" air I often introduce too much strain and tension |
The elastic recoil pressure is always in effect. But it ALONE is not sufficient to play music. The effort of "blowing" will raise the pressure required at any instant to play achieve the musical goal. Playing a tone requires air pressure (and flow), but this action is not effortless but neither is it "tension".
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I said when I THINK of blowing air I often introduce too much strain. When I THINK of sighing I play better and I don't overblow. This is my experience. If you have a different experience that is cool. Everyone plays different. But there is absolutely nothing to argue because the language I use is describing my experience and my thoughts while playing the trumpet. |
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JVL
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | Just to be clear, | JVL wrote: | | ... validated by a world known trainer & teacher, and ex international athlete |
Is not the hallmark of science; quite the opposite, in fact. |
are you sure ? So you don't know that a teacher in University and Insep (institut national du sport et de l'éducation physique) has diplomas in physiology, anatomy, DESS in ingéniérie of physical preparation, etc etc etc |
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JVL
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:44 am Post subject: |
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And i'll add that my initial purpose was to point that even if i appreciate and am interested in scientific elements given here and there, unfortunately too often we lose ourselves in theoric, blind and deaf debates that never bring practical answers and help to the questions and issues exposed by the different OP's.
I think we should more concentrate on bringing this kind of answers and help.
Best |
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supercow216
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| JVL wrote: | And i'll add that my initial purpose was to point that even if i appreciate and am interested in scientific elements given here and there, unfortunately too often we lose ourselves in theoric, blind and deaf debates that never bring practical answers and help to the questions and issues exposed by the different OP's.
I think we should more concentrate on bringing this kind of answers and help.
Best |
being a nerd myself, I feel the same. We, especially late-starters, are interested in how all the levers required during playing works. This can be observed via xray, records, then modeling, ect. (I like Claude Gordon writing on "diaphragm breathing")
Of course, how the brain signal wires to these levers are different, some levers are even connected. That's why there are a lot of feeling-based and indirect methods for the trumpet. This is the application side: end users don't need to know all the scientific details behind, but the authors surely should.
At least the awareness of the levers provides targets for observation during practicing, to correct oneself, to communicate w teachers, or others on forums 
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delano
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:44 am Post subject: |
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I don’t think that:
Maurice André
Miles Davis
Timofei Dokshizer
Maynard Ferguson
Serge Nakariakov
Clifford Brown
Harry James
Doc Severinsen
Rafael Mendez
were/are scientists |
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kalijah
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Neither is Paul Mayes, yet his videos are FULL of technical language and terms regarding air pressure, resistance, etc. Etc. So is ALL of that purely metaphorical ?
I dont think so.
And Paul is by far not the only one engaged in such.
| Quote: | | This is the application side: end users don't need to know all the scientific details behind, but the authors surely should.
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BUT THEY DONT!
NOT EVEN CLOSE!
It is obvious that teachers and players are VERY interested in the underlying science and cause and effect etc. Unfortunately they don't have sufficient knowledge or guidance to grasp it let alone explain it.
Yet they constantly perpetuate oft repeated myths and junk science.
I have had discussions with such and asked if indeed they were being metaphorical. Almost every time the answer is "NO this IS literally the underlying science."
Here is a typical exchange. I swear these things have been said on TH and elsewhere:
A is the "expert" teacher player. B is the skeptic:
A: "Everyone knows that air speed controls pitch"
B: "Air speed where?"
A: "Over the tongue"
B: "How did you measure it?"
A: "I didn't"
B:"Then how do you know?"
A: "Its simple Physics"
B " Did you ever study physics?"
A: "No I went to music school."
B: "Then how do you know physics?
A: "I have a DMA and can play a double C I will have you know!"
B: "Again, what physics?"
A: "How high can you play?"
B:"What bearing does that have?"
(See this is an attempt to discredit a viewpoint based on irrelevant factors. In other words, a valid argument or even a discussion can not occur.)
A: Well if you don't have a G above high C why should I listen to you?
B: Well you claim that air speed determines pitch. So how did you measure it? Or are you simply using metaphor to encourage certain actions? Like blowing with more effort while making a smaller aperture?
A: NO. The tongue compresses the air!
B: By "compression" do you mean air pressure?
A: No. One should never use pressure!
B: I thought you said you knew physics.
A: There are THREE compressions!
B: No there is only one.
A: Prove it!
B: I didn't make the original claim. You did.
A: You really could use hundreds of hours of lessons.
(Yes, someone actually said this to me who has never even heard me play)
Last edited by kalijah on Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:43 am; edited 4 times in total |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Oh by the way. "THE THREE COMPRESSIONS" is an (imagined) thing, and has been covered by at least 2 or three video bloggers. I believe the first was Charlie Porter. Others followed.
These were indeed literal, not metaphorical, discussions.
There is hardly one trumpet blogger that s not HUGE amounts of bad mechanics. They indeed literally believe what they repeat.
You really should categorize most of this as simply S&!# trumpet player say. |
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acritzer
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Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Posts: 827
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Now all we need is John to chime in and we can kiss this thread goodbye after rehashing the same scientific/semantic arguments that have happened before. |
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mm55
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Joined: 01 Jul 2013
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| JVL wrote: | | mm55 wrote: | Just to be clear, | JVL wrote: | | ... validated by a world known trainer & teacher, and ex international athlete |
Is not the hallmark of science; quite the opposite, in fact. |
are you sure ? So you don't know that a teacher in University and Insep (institut national du sport et de l'éducation physique) has diplomas in physiology, anatomy, DESS in ingéniérie of physical preparation, etc etc etc |
The fallacy of argumentum ad verecundiam is not the hallmark of science; quite the opposite, in fact.
_________________
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TrpPro
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Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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Location: Riverview, FL
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| supercow216 wrote: | | This is the application side: end users don't need to know all the scientific details behind, but the authors surely should. |
I'm interpreting the meaning of this statement as that you believe a teacher needs to be familiar with the science of how to play.
Why?
Who would you rather study with: a teacher who knows all the science involved in creating a great sound with great range OR a teacher who can show you how to acquire a great sound with great range, regardless of whether either one can actually play the horn.
I believe it is incredibly fascinating to understand how the science of playing the trumpet works, but also believe that it has no place, whatsoever, in the teaching of how to play. And, if interjected into the learning process, will more likely impede the learning of how to play than to help. |
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| TrpPro wrote: | | supercow216 wrote: | | This is the application side: end users don't need to know all the scientific details behind, but the authors surely should. |
I'm interpreting the meaning of this statement as that you believe a teacher needs to be familiar with the science of how to play.
Why?
Who would you rather study with: a teacher who knows all the science involved in creating a great sound with great range OR a teacher who can show you how to acquire a great sound with great range, regardless of whether either one can actually play the horn.
I believe it is incredibly fascinating to understand how the science of playing the trumpet works, but also believe that it has no place, whatsoever, in the teaching of how to play. And, if interjected into the learning process, will more likely impede the learning of how to play than to help. |
Teachers should understand it simply because it can prevent them from teaching false information.
The best teacher would be one who not only understands the science behind why something works, but can also apply that science to teaching. This doesn't mean unnecessarily passes such complex technical explanations on to his students, but actually avoids such conversations. It means he can use his knowledge to create exercises and mindsets in his students that help them learn.
A teacher who dreams up some excuse as to how something works just to sound credible as a teacher is doing a disservice, as he is disseminating false information and deluding his students.
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TrpPro
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I'll agree to disagree with you, but thanks for making the post. |
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
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Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | | JVL wrote: | | mm55 wrote: | Just to be clear, | JVL wrote: | | ... validated by a world known trainer & teacher, and ex international athlete |
Is not the hallmark of science; quite the opposite, in fact. |
are you sure ? So you don't know that a teacher in University and Insep (institut national du sport et de l'éducation physique) has diplomas in physiology, anatomy, DESS in ingéniérie of physical preparation, etc etc etc |
The fallacy of argumentum ad verecundiam is not the hallmark of science; quite the opposite, in fact. |
i really don't see your point. Do you mean, without having read my book, that its contain and the validation by this trainer/teacher has no scientific value ? That's really scientific, talking about something you don't know !
Just to remind, my point there was not to talk about me or my book, but that our first goal should be to help the OPs to overcome their issues or answer them.
When i ask for an advice, i want a practical answer, even if the image one will give me is not necessarily scientifically true; i need an element, an info, or a image that will help me.
And once again, science doesn't mean or equal always truth.
I really have no need to show my knowledge or science or whatever, just to flatter my ego. Like Socrates said, i know that i know nothing. And Montaigne added something to it, like (if my memory is right) "yet, saying that is too much, it's pretensiousness"
And why isolate just this part of a sentence in the text ? The previous sentence had more importance to me :
Are we talking about pedagogy or just science for labs ? |
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cheiden
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Being an engineer I welcome a time when the mechanics of playing at a high level can be understood precisely for any particular player. But even if it is, the language we use is imprecise, plus there's no guarantee that I'll have the ability to manipulate all the tissues of my face as needed just because somebody describes it. Perhaps there will be a machine that will provide feedback to help move and tension in the exact right way. I'm genuinely enthusiastic about the possibility.
But until this becomes readily available I chose to defer largely to the old school that uses less precise methods and allow that they will often use less than precise language. And I specifically disagree that a teacher at the highest level should be expected to fully understand the science and fully understand the all the associated terms and somehow know to avoid their misuse.
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I was being a bit of an idealist and didn't communicate my thoughts well.
Does a teacher need to understand the physics and science behind the mechanics of playing a brass instrument? Of course not. I prefer that if said teacher actually wants to explain to me "how it all works" and explain it using such terms as air velocity, air compression, etc., he knows his $#!+ and doesn't think of some pseudoscientific explanation.
I've met plenty plenty of teachers who pretend to know more than they actually know and give false explanations that do nothing to elucidate how playing actually works, but quite the opposite. And this also happens in other subjects, not just music.
So maybe I'll phrase it this way: teachers should teach you how to play the instrument and music. They shouldn't invent false information to sound smart in front of their students.
Doc Reinhardt is said to have had a sign on his door: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." I believe this is especially true for teachers.
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"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy eloquently wrote:
| Quote: | | The best teacher would be one who not only understands the science behind why something works, but can also apply that science to teaching. This doesn't mean unnecessarily passes such complex technical explanations on to his students, but actually avoids such conversations. It means he can use his knowledge to create exercises and mindsets in his students that help them learn. |
Well stated, but... That teacher is a unicorn.
A teacher does NOT have to know the underlying science in the strictest sense (or at all) to teach well. A teacher with good instincts and who can explain the required actions and efforts effectively can be successful. I find that these usually don't engage much in technical explanations either.
| Quote: | | A teacher who dreams up some excuse as to how something works just to sound credible as a teacher is doing a disservice, as he is disseminating false information and deluding his students. |
Again, well stated.
But sometimes they just innocently repeat the prevailing myths even when teaching an effective action. Often the "explanations" are peddled by "celebrity" players and such. And sometimes it is just layman's myths.
I also think that metaphorical language, which often does help one to learn the correct actions, morphs into "physics" or "facts".
Also, physical explanations are used to stress the importance of a particular action. That is, to enforce the action. This is not necessary and can morph into disinformation and be counter-productive.
If a certain action works no explanation is required.
It seem that many players ARE interested in the underlying science. Unfortunately even relatively simple concepts elude most. A major reason for that is that the misunderstood myths are so deeply imbedded because they are so often repeated. |
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:05 am Post subject: |
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Wait...unicorns don't exist?! 
I get it. I had followed up on that post and clarified my position (hopefully).
I was going to mention that some teachers would, with good intentions, unknowingly pass on poor information and whatnot but felt I might not clearly communicate and instead add fuel to the fire.
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"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| supercow216 wrote: | | kalijah wrote: | | No. And neither should you. You should consult only Jeff at this point. You should stay with Jeff's instruction and give it an opportunity to work. |
I am aware of it. I am still practicing BE everyday, but doing RI and RO separatedly (30 mins away) from fundamental stuffs.
I am just suggesting starting a note with a different setting which allows me to better support subsequent notes. Once the feeling of "free flowing" is achieved, I forget about it and move on to slurs, TOL...
As I said, my top lip and corners' movements while ascending and descending are still very much BE movements, so I credit that to Jeff. |
I got most benefit with BE by just doing the exercises and not conciously trying to incorporate any of the techniques as a method to follow. More using them to explore the ‘edges’ of the feelings and results of the different exercises. Exploring some things I haven’t before and letting the experiences guide me. Using each if they work, more like a bag of teaching tricks you may not think of yourself. Do them and you can find what works for you. Don’t go in trying to become a roll out or in player but an open mind will take you thru a lot of ideas quickly up to you to adapt.
I’m glad I went thru the book.
Rod |
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Mcl
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Location: Houston
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| Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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I was using the sigh idea with limited success. My success improved greatly when I started using a forceful sigh - like trying to clear someone else's farts out of your lung. I think of it as a second stage booster. First, the diaphragm creates sufficient air speed pressure for normal range playing; then your sudden chest compression acts as a turbo charger on top of the diaphragm pressure. Formula: diaphragm + open throat + forceful sigh = airspeed + higher notes
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