• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Red brass bell = copper bell?



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
deleted_user_c26dccb
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:08 am    Post subject: Red brass bell = copper bell? Reply with quote

Hi!

Just a quick question. Yesterday I had a chat with a fellow musician who told me a bell made of pure copper is absolutely impossible and that instruments with a "copper" bell actually have a red brass (90% copper, 10% zinc) bell.

So basically he says copper and red brass are just different terms for the same alloy used. Could someone confirm this?

Thanks in advance!

Jeff


Last edited by deleted_user_c26dccb on Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ChopsGone
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1793

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your friend is full of it. I have horns with red brass bells, from the more copper rich brass of the Olds Recording to heavy red brass in Calicchio. But I also have horns with copper bells, including in Calicchio. Is there some zinc in the copper? Wouldn’t doubt it. But to prescribe an exact ratio and then to equate that with red brass is just wrong.
_________________
Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, copper is copper.

Manufacturers with pure copper bells include Conn Coprion, Schilke, E.K. Blessing (Elkhart), Getzen, all above formed in a copper plating tank by Anderson Plating. Others like Kanstul and Calicchio were formed from flat sheet stock evident from their visible seams.

Though red brass is 90% copper 10% zinc it's color is not near as deep.

I hope this is helpful.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
deleted_user_c26dccb
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok! Thank you so much for the replies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shofarguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To extend what Mr. Becker stated, Zig Kanstul learned to form copper bells from sheet stock back in the 1980s 0r early 90s, when he built the prototypes that became the model 1525 & 925 flugelhorn.

He found that copper needed a strip of bronze in between the layers that form the seam, as copper could not be brazed to copper, directly. Hence the yellow stripe that runs the full length of Kanstul copper bells.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deleted_user_c26dccb
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

-message deleted-

Last edited by deleted_user_c26dccb on Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yamahaguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3992

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A beauty indeed!! Love that scratch finish too
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
austincustombrass
Veteran Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 246
Location: Kansas City, MO

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Adams has copper stamped on the bell it's pure copper from sheet metal. A bit of a pain in the butt to make but a glorious sound results from their efforts. My F5 has a pure copper bell and it's arguably my favorite horn in the collection.

Regards,
T
_________________
As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.

It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.

Cool Links here:
https://linktr.ee/austincustombrass
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is copper harder to make from sheet than near pure silver which I understand is hard to work. I ask because I have a Brittania silver 1 piece side seamed rimless bell by Taylor on my Eclipse Enigma, and there is only 1 very tiny pinhole in the seam, otherwise undetectable. Do the Adams copper bells have to have another alloy to join the seam.? I had an Olds flugel with a copper bell and never noticed it if it was there but?. When I talked with Leigh about the pinhole, he said it was very uncommon to have so undetectable a seam but it was joined with the same silver as the bell was beaten from. Both Andy and Leigh are experts at what they do but I just haven’t seen a horn where 2 metals were used to side seam, but then I don’t know a lot🤷🏻‍♂️
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Danbassin
Veteran Member


Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 460
Location: Idyllwild, CA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Is copper harder to make from sheet than near pure silver which I understand is hard to work. I ask because I have a Brittania silver 1 piece side seamed rimless bell by Taylor on my Eclipse Enigma, and there is only 1 very tiny pinhole in the seam, otherwise undetectable. Do the Adams copper bells have to have another alloy to join the seam.? I had an Olds flugel with a copper bell and never noticed it if it was there but?. When I talked with Leigh about the pinhole, he said it was very uncommon to have so undetectable a seam but it was joined with the same silver as the bell was beaten from. Both Andy and Leigh are experts at what they do but I just haven’t seen a horn where 2 metals were used to side seam, but then I don’t know a lot🤷🏻‍♂️
Rod


Sterling Silver is a bit different (and a number of threads on this material already exist elsewhere on this site), but the two processes described above when working with copper bells are similar to those used by various manufacturers working with silver. Bach, for example, had an earlier line of Sterling Silver bell Strads, which were made from hammered sheet metal. Their "Sterling Silver Plus" was actually greater than 99% pure silver, and was electroformed around a mandrel, as described above with case of Anderson's work for Schilke.

Best,
-DB
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Picc;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danbassin wrote:
Rod Haney wrote:
Is copper harder to make from sheet than near pure silver which I understand is hard to work. I ask because I have a Brittania silver 1 piece side seamed rimless bell by Taylor on my Eclipse Enigma, and there is only 1 very tiny pinhole in the seam, otherwise undetectable. Do the Adams copper bells have to have another alloy to join the seam.? I had an Olds flugel with a copper bell and never noticed it if it was there but?. When I talked with Leigh about the pinhole, he said it was very uncommon to have so undetectable a seam but it was joined with the same silver as the bell was beaten from. Both Andy and Leigh are experts at what they do but I just haven’t seen a horn where 2 metals were used to side seam, but then I don’t know a lot🤷🏻‍♂️
Rod


Sterling Silver is a bit different (and a number of threads on this material already exist elsewhere on this site), but the two processes described above when working with copper bells are similar to those used by various manufacturers working with silver. Bach, for example, had an earlier line of Sterling Silver bell Strads, which were made from hammered sheet metal. Their "Sterling Silver Plus" was actually greater than 99% pure silver, and was electroformed around a mandrel, as described above with case of Anderson's work for Schilke.

Best,
-DB


The bell on this horn is sheet at 99%+ and is a one piece. I understand the Bach’s and any done at Andersen are electroformed and therefore have no seam. The Sterling was a bit more able to be worked because I believe it had cadmium? included in metal. I come from a family of welders and they usually bond with like metal, the seaming is much more like brazing or joining aluminum (if you are really good) so I’m not familiar, just curious. There is considerable buffing on seamed instruments.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Steve Hollahan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 518
Location: Charlotte, NC

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:59 pm    Post subject: Red brass Reply with quote

Red brass refers to the amount of lead content in brass.

Copper is copper.
_________________
Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mike Prestage
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 714
Location: Hereford, UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:06 am    Post subject: Re: Red brass Reply with quote

Steve Hollahan wrote:
Red brass refers to the amount of lead content in brass.

Copper is copper.


Steve, did you mean copper instead of lead? Brass often does contain a certain amount of lead but AFAIK it has little or no effect on the colour and I'm not sure how common it is for there to be lead at all in sheet stock. Lead bearing grades are certainly widely used for bar stock because they're easier to machine.

Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nixer
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 129

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
To extend what Mr. Becker stated, Zig Kanstul learned to form copper bells from sheet stock back in the 1980s 0r early 90s, when he built the prototypes that became the model 1525 & 925 flugelhorn.

He found that copper needed a strip of bronze in between the layers that form the seam, as copper could not be brazed to copper, directly. Hence the yellow stripe that runs the full length of Kanstul copper bells.


Interesting thread, thanks.

The new Getzen Eterna Deluxe 900DLX, with its copper sheet bell, has a similar yellow seam stripe on the bell.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Hollahan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 518
Location: Charlotte, NC

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject: Red brass Reply with quote

I was taught in machining course that red brass is free machining and contained more lead than yellow.
However, just checked "Machinerys' Handbook" and it seems red brass has more copper content, up to 86%.

Sorry for mistake.
_________________
Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Liberty Lips
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 972

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yellow brass is 70% copper and 30% zinc. Gold brass, also called bronze, is 80% copper and 20% zinc. Rose brass, which some also call bronze, is 90% copper and 10% zinc. These percentages vary with the manufacturers, of course, but that is the basic nomenclature. Trace amounts of other metals, lead in particular, are common.

Copper isn't necessarily harder to work with, it's just that its properties have to be taken into account. It has a higher melting temperature than brass, which is why copper is brazed with brass wire rather than copper wire, and it also requires a different annealing schedule than working with brass sheet requires. Also, being a bit softer, it's easier to dent than brass is, and will split easier if thin sheets are used.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shofarguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: Red brass Reply with quote

Mike Prestage wrote:
Steve Hollahan wrote:
Red brass refers to the amount of lead content in brass.

Copper is copper.


Steve, did you mean copper instead of lead? Brass often does contain a certain amount of lead but AFAIK it has little or no effect on the colour and I'm not sure how common it is for there to be lead at all in sheet stock. Lead bearing grades are certainly widely used for bar stock because they're easier to machine.

Mike


I once had a digital copy of the catalogue from the foundry that supplied Kanstul. It listed all the elements present in each product. The sheet brass Kanstul ordered was a ratio of copper and zinc with trace amounts of tin, manganese and certain others I don’t recall. It’s possible that it had traces of lead, but I don’t remember it being listed.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group