King Silver Tone cornet question (edited)

wkh · Regular Member Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 19

I dug out an old cornet I played in high school in the 1950s. It’s a King Silver Tone, medium bore (long) cornet made by the H.N. White Co. in Cleveland, OH circa 1933 (based on the 147 thousand serial number. Does anyone have any experience with these? It always seemed like it took a lot of effort to play, but curiosity makes me want to send it off to be put in playable condition. What do they play like and sound like? I remember it always took a lot of effort to play, so there was probably some issue with it when I got the horn, but I assume it can be brought back into good playing condition, and I'm wondering if it's worth sending it off for restoration. Any thoughts, advice? Thanks.

Richard III · Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:18 pm Post subject:

Mine was made in 1937. What is your question?
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

wkh · Regular Member Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 19

Richard III · Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:31 am Post subject:

I understand the issue about it being hard to play. Or maybe resistant feeling. That may be the issue. Or it could be the valves are so worn that compression loss could be the culprit. My favorite cornet mouthpiece is a Cleveland C that is a V shaped cup with a little more open bore. With the Silvertone that mouthpiece doesn't work as well. However, with a Holton Heim 2 that was recommended by the cornet's former owner, the horn really plays well and quite easily.

The sound is well balanced with a good solid core, not too bright but plenty of sparkle when needed. I think it would make a very good all round cornet.

On mine I have to pull the tuning slide pretty far to get it in tune. But with that intonation is pretty spot on, even the low C# and D are pretty close.
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

You say that there was "probably" some issue with the horn when you got it. So, you're speculating based on your perception that the horn "took a lot of effort to play." That could have something to do with the horn. It could also have something to do with the way you play the horn or your personal general perception of the difficulty of playing the horn (others may have a much different perception). There's no way for us to know the condition of the horn without personally examining it.

Is there a tech in your area to whom you could take the horn for an evaluation? Or, as an alternative, is there a highly skilled player available to test play the horn and render an opinion? It seems to me that some investigation is in order before any decisions are made.

I have a 1933 King Silver Tone cornet and it's a great player. To look at the valves you'd think they're worn but the horn actually has excellent compression, so looks can be deceiving.
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HERMOKIWI

wkh · Regular Member Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 19

Thanks Richard. I don’t know the Holton Heim 2 mouthpiece, but I’ll look it up. I have a slew of mouthpieces from over the years. I’m using Monette mouthpieces on my cornets now, one of which has a very deep cup (a flumpet cup). I did find an old Bach Mt Vernon 7 (no letter) in the case with the Silver Tone - I cleaned it up a little, and it appears to be brass. If it was silver plated, the plating has worn off.

wkh · Regular Member Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 19

I realize no one can divine the condition of the horn without seeing and playing it. I was curious what they were like when put back into good playing condition, and you have, thank you, answered that question at the end of your post. I sent an email to Jim Becker at Osmun Music asking him about the old King, and asking him about working on my Bach long cornet, but I haven’t heard from him yet. Do you have any recommendations for techs to refurbish the King Silver Tone? I thought about Jim because I see him post here fairly frequently.

I cleaned the bell up enough to read the text. https://holl.smugmug.com/1933-King-Silver-Tone-cornet/i-qbVbXNH/A

Richard III · Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:11 pm Post subject:

Cool photo. Here's mine:

[img]

IMG_1224 by genevie7, on Flickr[/img]
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

wkh · Regular Member Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 19

Beautiful Richard! I cleaned and oiled the valves - the slides are in pretty tight, so I didn't try to remove them - then I tried a couple of different mouthpieces, a Flip Oakes British cornet (old style) mouthpiece and a Monette Resonance Prana B6S1 - it has a really warm, sweet sound, especially with the Monette - I switched back and forth between the King and a Bach Stradivarius cornet because they are both the American long style. I just played for a few minutes but I really like the tone from the King. It does start to get stuffy above the staff, and clearly, at a minimum needs a good cleaning (chemical, I assume). I’m anxious to get it completely refurbished. I took few photos to give people a rough sense of the shape it’s in.

https://holl.smugmug.com/1933-King-Silver-Tone-cornet

Richard III · Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:08 am Post subject:

Looks to be in really good shape. It is the Master model of the Silvertone. Mine is the Long Cornet model. Their sounds are not the same and the response is also different when playing them. I think mine is brighter and the Master style has more core to the sound. It is fun to try different mouthpieces. Find the right one and you'll definitely know it right away. Best wishes.
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

wkh · Regular Member Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 19

Richard III · Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:32 pm Post subject:

wkh · Regular Member Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 19

Thanks. I've never seen one of these. I snapped a photo with a cell phone of the Bach and King Silver Tone together (I don't know how you post a photo here, so I've added a link to the photo, https://holl.smugmug.com/1933-King-Silver-Tone-cornet/i-9sN8tHd/A

derby_mute · Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:17 am Post subject:

It sounds like a compression issue, or perhaps the horn needs a good clean. Take to a competent repair person and have them pull the slides and give it a clean.

With older horns like these, the valve tolerances were not as close as horns now, so use a heavier oil like Yamaha Vintage or Hetmann 3.

Remember also it's a medium bore so there will be more resistance than a larger bore instrument.

I have one from 1936. It's a lovely playing horn.
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Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

wkh · Regular Member Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 19

Thanks very much for the information HERMOKIWI. Also thank you Richard and derby. I did go to the HN White website, and looked and read and searched this site. Pretty soon I was exchanging emails and phone calls with Chris Charvat - which resulted in this beautiful engraved Silver-Sonic cornet arriving on the Fed Ex truck this morning,
https://holl.smugmug.com/King-Artist-Silversonic-Cornet-12-27-19

I am planning to follow your suggestion and have the 1933 Silver Tone cornet checked and put into good playing condition. the 1933 has the smaller bore (.448, I think), and Chris said this one has a larger bore (.458?). I’m curious to see the difference. The new cornet is serial no 354 something - I’d have to go upstairs and look to get the rest of the number. I think he said it was made in the middle 1950s when I was in high school.

Is your Silver Tone trumpet the Liberty model? I also bought a .448 bore Silver-Sonic Liberty (1045-S) made in 1965 from Chris. It comes sometime tomorrow because the shipping company sent them via different methods. I’m even more curious to see how it plays. I have a Bach Stradivarius 37 trumpet with a 43 leadpipe (I bought it for my son in the middle 1980s when he was in high school, and I discovered the leadpipe was split when Looked at it few months ago. I had it chemically cleaned and the 43 leadpipe installed. My son switched horns when he played in college and this one had been sitting unused in a case for 30 plus years. It is the most effortless horn to play I have with the possible exception of the Van Laar flugelhorn. I’m curious to see how the small bore Liberty compares. I’d love to hear your thoughts on these trumpets, if that is OK on this cornet section.

Bill

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

wkh · Regular Member Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 19

Thanks for that information. I agree about Chris, and the fact he is keeping the family history alive. I didn’t even consider looking anywhere else for a King cornet or trumpet. The Liberty I bought from him arrived this afternoon, and I can’t tell it from a new horn.He said it was 99.5% perfect - I have neither the inclination or the ability to discover what minuscule imperfection he found. The horn is just effortless to play - since this is the cornet section, I’ll post about in on horn forum. I want to learn more about it and others like it.

adc · Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:17 pm Post subject:

I have a couple King Masters. I would guess there is very little difference between the two. Great horn. Maybe second only to the Conn 28A (subjective)
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