• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Annealing



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
kramergfy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 867
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject: Annealing Reply with quote

I’m interested in what experience others have in annealing the bell of their horn and what to expect. I understand Tony Scodwell is well versed in the subject and I’ve read a lot of the posts here already. My main question is would annealing a lightweight bell, like a Mt. Vernon Bach improve the projection much? Are there any potential risks involved? Also, does anyone know a shop in Southern California that offers this service? Thanks.
_________________
"I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 690

PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The balance between working, which hardens brass, and annealing, which softens, is the alchemy of bell making. To what temp, for how long, at what ramp rate, etc. is a key determinant in tone and response.

Bells are not normally annealed, other than spot annealing to prevent cracking during really major repairs from which the horn never fully recovers, after final spinning. Annealing, regardless of to temper, to make workable, or to fully realign the structure, all involves temperatures well above the melting point of solder and plating. The bell rim bead is solidified with solder infill that will all be cooked out in such an instance, and the plating would obviously have to be removed first as well.

If annealed much beyond the norm for a finished bell, the sound would go dead, so since projection is often associated with high frequency intensity at distance, I think you have this backwards anyway.
_________________
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1927 Conn 22B NYS
1957 Holton Model 27 Stratodyne
1985 Yamaha YEP-621 (first in US)
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson British Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shofarguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 6492
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread reminded me of one conversation I had with Zig Kanstul on the occasion that I first compared a standard 1537 with the more developed 1537P. I asked him if the P version had additional heat treating, compared to the 1537, because the timbre had a finer texture to the sound. Zig gave a little start and looked at me a bit sideways with a slightly surprised look in his eyes.

He answered, "Yes, the heat treating was part of the additional work." Maybe he was surprised that I could tell the difference? He never said, but I think I can say that his level of respect for me went up. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 2951
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Referring to Mr. Kanstul's work, there has to be some final annealing done on, for example, the copper flugelhorn bells. They rank up there with the softest metal I've ever worked to repair.

I've had a few old Bach bells that I experimented with annealing the back crook. At the same time I'd open them up a bit and create a new taper after they were softened. It did change them for the better. Be very careful though, if the metal's at all rotten, leave it be!
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Schilke X4B
Pickett 3D
https://yourbrass.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
benlewis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 758
Location: Memphis, TN

PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be mistaken, but I believe part of the full Malone conversion on my Yamaha C included selective annealing of portions of the bell and the third valve slide.

Whatever was done to it; it plays great!

HTH

Ben
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony Scodwell
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1685

PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:13 pm    Post subject: Annealing Reply with quote

Feel free to look at the two YouTube videos called "Tony Scodwell making trumpets, part one and two". I clearly show what I do and basically it's quite a simple process. Heat treat the entire bell before mounting and soldering the bead, thoroughly clean the bell (I dip 30 seconds in a dilute muriatic solution), solder the bead, clean up the bead area and buff the bell prior to mounting.

Zig once told me that in a production process it wasn't feasible to do this for each bell. He said years ago at Olds they tried it but it was too time consuming. He also told some players that they needed to go to a custom maker like me if they wanted this done. For a while, the opposite technique was to freeze the entire trumpet in liquid nitrogen which supposedly gave the same results. I never found this to be true and haven't heard much about that lately.

The end result for my Scodwell USA trumpets is a horn which has a much more defined core along with superior projection. Of course I hand pick from many bells to find the exact results I want and I feel my advantage is actually being able to play the trumpet at a very high level with the mechanical skills required to put them together.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group