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Heim
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 181
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 Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| The closest trumpet to a Martin Committee that I have played is a King Golden Flair. |
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TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2412
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | | TrumpetMD wrote: | Now, to figure out what to do with all this free "time on my hands". 
Mike |
Physician, heal thyself!
(Joke: just suggesting what to do with the free time on your hands, not commenting on your posts.) |
Great advice.
Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| TrumpetMD wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: | | As I said before, as far as whether or not these are copies or reproductions, I really don't know and I really don't care. I guess there will always be the nitpickers here on the forum that will continue to argue about the authenticity or legitimacy of certain horns. So for those of you who it seems have a little too much time on your hands, while you battle it out over whether these new horns from BAC are copies or reproductions, I might suggest that you also debate with each other as to whether these horns should be considered "continuation horns". That should keep you busy for a while. |
Sounds like I struck a nerve, adagiotrumpet. That wasn't my intention. I was just adding my observation to the conversation. No one is "nitpicking", or "arguing", or "battling".
Now, to figure out what to do with all this free "time on my hands".
Mike |
There is some imagined mystique to anything that no-longer is. In reality, technology advances, and tastes evolve. This is why even if a model name persists in the hands of a single manufacturer (which manages to stay under the same ownership somehow), that model gets refreshed and upgraded over time.
Benge was not trying to "copy" Besson, he was first trying to restore, then improve, and ultimately replace with better. Kanstul did the same for the Burbank project, and now BAC is pursuing the next iteration of the work of those involved dating back to Benge (including Schilke, Autrey and Bush).
There have been 3 distinct iterations of the Martin Committee, plus a handful of Kanstul 1603s. There are substantial differences, but also a commonality that is recognizable as defining a "Committee". BAC is building a fourth generation, not a replica or a clone - just as Larry Ramirez did for LeBlanc, just as Schilke helped Martin do to his own original mixing of Llewellyn and Imperial DNA.
Interestingly, this will be the first involvement of a Martin family member with a Martin Committee - that in itself makes it unique - but still a Committee.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3302
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | ...
but also a commonality that is recognizable as defining a "Committee". BAC is building a fourth generation, not a replica or a clone ...
Interestingly, this will be the first involvement of a Martin family member with a Martin Committee - that in itself makes it unique - but still a Committee. |
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It's that 'commonality that is recognizable as defining a "Committee" that will determine how well any new horn called a 'Committee' achieves the designation. Having the Martin name on the horn is nice if it reaches the goal, otherwise it will be in the 'record books' with an asterisk (*).
And of course, it might be a great horn in its own right - regardless of how it is labeled or advertised.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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adagiotrumpet
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Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 903
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| TrumpetMD wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: | | As I said before, as far as whether or not these are copies or reproductions, I really don't know and I really don't care. I guess there will always be the nitpickers here on the forum that will continue to argue about the authenticity or legitimacy of certain horns. So for those of you who it seems have a little too much time on your hands, while you battle it out over whether these new horns from BAC are copies or reproductions, I might suggest that you also debate with each other as to whether these horns should be considered "continuation horns". That should keep you busy for a while. |
Sounds like I struck a nerve, adagiotrumpet. That wasn't my intention. I was just adding my observation to the conversation. No one is "nitpicking", or "arguing", or "battling".
Now, to figure out what to do with all this free "time on my hands".
Mike |
Good observation. This did strike a nerve. It irks me when anybody passes judgment on something they, in fact, may not have personally experienced. I have seen these three horns, I have played these horns, and I have met the people who are directly involved in producing these horns. It is on this basis that I offer my evaluation of what I have personally experienced.
What I won't do is try to pigeon-hole these horns into the "these are copies/these are reproductions" debate. Furthermore, I won't be dragged down into the speculation as to why these horns are now being made since I have no first hand knowledge that will factually contribute to the "conversation".
These are terrific instruments in their own right and if I was forced to make a comparison, I would say that they have great similarities to great horns of the past. |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:09 am Post subject: |
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This might have been answered someplace above and I apologize but we're on the fourth page now, so . .
Can anyone tell me if the new Committee is only available as a large bore horn as on their web page, or do they offer a medium bore horn as well. Thanks.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Yamahaguy
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Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3992
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Benge was not trying to "copy" Besson, he was first trying to restore, then improve, and ultimately replace with better. |
I very much like to think along these lines as well.
I am especially fond of Benge trumpets and am curious to try the BAC version.
I've messaged a few TH'ers as well as FB friends that attended NAMM, and have
only heard positive feedback.
According to one very reliable source those horns were prototypes and slight
alterations are still in the works (the logos, for one) in hopes of improving what
they already have. |
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TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2412
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | TrumpetMD wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: | | As I said before, as far as whether or not these are copies or reproductions, I really don't know and I really don't care. I guess there will always be the nitpickers here on the forum that will continue to argue about the authenticity or legitimacy of certain horns. So for those of you who it seems have a little too much time on your hands, while you battle it out over whether these new horns from BAC are copies or reproductions, I might suggest that you also debate with each other as to whether these horns should be considered "continuation horns". That should keep you busy for a while. |
Sounds like I struck a nerve, adagiotrumpet. That wasn't my intention. I was just adding my observation to the conversation. No one is "nitpicking", or "arguing", or "battling".
Now, to figure out what to do with all this free "time on my hands".
Mike |
Good observation. This did strike a nerve. It irks me when anybody passes judgment on something they, in fact, may not have personally experienced. I have seen these three horns, I have played these horns, and I have met the people who are directly involved in producing these horns. It is on this basis that I offer my evaluation of what I have personally experienced. |
You're absolutely right.
I didn't mean to pass judgement on the horn as to whether it was good or bad. That wasn't my intention. I'm sure it's a great horn, and I'm excited about what BAC is doing. My fault for not clarifying this in my original reply. I just gave my opinion, that based on past efforts, no one is going to bring back the original Committee. I like the way OldSchoolEuph summed it up, that BAC is building a fourth generation of the Committee.
Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Yamahaguy wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Benge was not trying to "copy" Besson, he was first trying to restore, then improve, and ultimately replace with better. |
I very much like to think along these lines as well.
I am especially fond of Benge trumpets and am curious to try the BAC version.
I've messaged a few TH'ers as well as FB friends that attended NAMM, and have
only heard positive feedback.
According to one very reliable source those horns were prototypes and slight
alterations are still in the works (the logos, for one) in hopes of improving what
they already have. |
Your information is correct - the Benge project is ongoing. R&D on French trumpet design had continued for over 75 years until halting in July 2018 for a bit before being picked-up by folks at BAC who are now working with the haphazardly discovered notes and experimental parts/assemblies to not only recover the last of that R&D but continue forward. Their rather audacious goal is to produce the best iteration of that concept yet made.
(And yes, the production bell crest will not be hastily hand-rendered - though the communication of the concept, Benge graphic, Benge font, was quite clear even with the slightly shaky form of some letters.)
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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adc
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Joined: 01 Mar 2019
Posts: 119
Location: Elizabethtown PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Don't shoot the messenger. And note I am talking Cornets. I have owned Three Committees. I gave one away and loaned on to my Music teacher who likes it.
Personally, I will take my 1952 King Master (I have two) or my Conn 36A (I have two) over the Committee
Playing fast fingering stuff is way easier with the 36A or Master. I believe the Committee slots to much. Again...just an opinion. And it is a Cornet.
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Too many Old Cornets to Count |
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J.D. Heckathorn
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Joined: 16 Aug 2018
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting thread! I don't own a committee nor have I ever played one. For that smoky jazz sound I usually pull out my Conn 12B. Is there something to the design of the committee that makes them especially unique enough to emulate? The Bach 37 is a standard in terms of "traditional" trumpet sound goes, but is it the best?
I think it's a mistake to talk of such subjective topics with so much objectivity. It's cool to do what has worked, but just as with music in general I'm more interested in twists made to legacy designs/ideas. It'd be interesting to see the committee with different bell/Leadpipe/tuning slide combos.
But for that quid I'm getting a completely custom horn that I can say is "my" take on a trumpet design based on the feel and sounds I imagine when I play. That's just my take, however. |
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chiefgearhead
Regular Member
Joined: 20 May 2017
Posts: 54
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Ortiz wrote: | | Wonder how they play compared to the Schilke Handcraft-look forward to trying one. |
I am far from an expert player, and I am also self-aware enough to know that I am not great at identifying the numerous ways I change my approach in order to compensate for a different horn; I only know that I do, a fact made clear when I got my Yamaha Miyashiro back from lead pipe replacement due to red rot. I’d been playing my Committee for three months and when I first played the Yamaha, it felt foreign and hard to play. My belief is that I was using an extremely open embouchure on the Committee, playing in to the horn’s inherent round timbre. That approach doesn’t seem to work on the Yamaha, it needs a bit more compression. And yes, same mouthpiece.
Back to the topic at hand. I was fortunate enough to play a lot of horns at NAMM this year, including the BAC, Schilke, and Adams “Committtee” replicas. I’m a fan of all three manufacturers, and like all three horns. In that environment, with limited time on each, and certainly with no systematic approach my general opinion is that they’re all quite nice, and combine the “no edge” sound of the original large bore Committee without some of the intonation challenges. They’re gorgeous to look at and a fitting tribute to the Martin model. That said, the horn that felt and sounded the most like my 56 large bore Deluxe was the Adams A4 (the heavyweight model), most likely due to its large bore (the Adams “Committee” was a medium bore horn). It’s currently on my “wish list” although I really have no need for it, not that “need” was ever part of the calculus for a trumpet purchase decision.
-tj
_________________
In the gig bag
23 Lotus Solo Max
56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
18 Adams F2
In the closet
82 L.A. Benge MLP
71 Bach 37 Stradivarius
69 Courtois flugelhorn
1949 Blessing Artist
84 DEG Dynasty 2v G Bugle
74 Conn Director |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:58 am Post subject: |
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When the Deluxe was introduced before 1950, it was a more traditional version of the concurrently produced 2nd generation Committee with greater overall mass, a bit more meat in the body to damp extreme highs, and a slightly smoothed bell transition. The net result was a Committee that was a little tighter and a little more traditional core. Not surprised a heavy Adams would feel familiar.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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shofarguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7010
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:32 am Post subject: |
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@ Bill Ortiz,
I had the chance to play a Schilke HC2, a Kanstul 1603 and a 1956 Martin Committee Deluxe all at the same place and time. The Schilke was nothing like the Committee in sound. It was obviously brighter. Like WAAAAYY brighter.
The Kanstul was hard to differentiate in sound, but it had a "crisp" aspect to it that was probably due to it being 60 years newer.
If the BAC Martin is based on the parts developed for the 1603, it will sound most like the original Martin and very little like the Schilke.
Just so you know, I loved the HD for its own sake. It was an excellent horn. I just found it very different from the Martin.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Bill Ortiz
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Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 904
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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That's interesting Brian-I had a friend come over with his 1603 and we compared it with a HC2. We found the HC2 was darker than the Kanstul. I guess a lot of it is due to mouthpiece selection and blowing approach. I find that with my HC1 I can get a nice Committee like tone if I play soft or medium volume-at louder volumes it brightens up somewhat but still had fullness and body. I use a Schilke 14B2 which is Bach 1 1/2 C diameter and 3C depth, which is perhaps why it's not that bright for me. I also felt as much as I've loved playing on Committees most of my career that the Schilke "plays" better-less intonation issues, less tightness upstairs and a very even blow top to bottom. Just me experience-horns usually play differently for different players :)
_________________
'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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Bill Ortiz
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Joined: 02 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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....I'd like to add that my HC1 was a lot less bright once I got the best gap setting dialed in.
_________________
'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7010
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Ortiz wrote: | | ....I'd like to add that my HC1 was a lot less bright once I got the best gap setting dialed in. |
So, Bill, I had another player from the local Milano's Music store in Mesa, AZ do back-to-back comparisons with me. We traded off playing the three horns in their warehouse, which was half an old JCPenneys store with a wood floor. Each of us would play through all of the horns in a random order while the other listened from a distance with his back turned. Each player used the same mouthpiece for each horn (though we each used our own).
The Schilke always stood out from the other two, which were not as easy to tell apart. This was just standard easy playing technique with no affectation.
If you search through Wallace Roney videos, you can hear when he is playing the Schilke. It has less bottom frequencies in the tone. The same can be heard when Steve "Horn Trader" Dillard played it at NAMM the year it came out. What's interesting is how Steve avoids making any comments comparing the Schilke to a large bore Martin. The Schilke is just much brighter in all of these cases. Again, I really like how the HC plays and sounds. I think it's a terrific trumpet.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Bill Ortiz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 904
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Brian, I would guess that generally you are correct. As for comparisons with the Martin Committee, Schilke themselves say that the Handcraft isn't a Committee copy-it's "inspired by the Handcraft Committee. Generally I find most Schilkes to play on the bright side, which is why I stopped playing the B1-if found the HC1 to be a "better" jazz horn, whatever that means :)
This funny this is that while the HC2 is supposed to be warmer with it's copper bell, I actually found the HC1 warmer, at least for me. I think it's because with the yellow brass bell, I found that it responded quicker and took less air to get the horn to sing as opposed to the HC2. I believe this is why I personally found the HC1 to be better for me that the HC1-i could play it lighter when I wanted but could stand up to lead playing as well. In further agreement with your points, the fact that the Handcraft isn't a Committee clone, but rather it's own thing is precisely why I liked it so much. Thanks for your posts.....
_________________
'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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Bill Ortiz
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Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 904
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Brian, I forgot to add that I play the lacquer version, which I found to be more smoky/buttery than the silver version. I believe the lacquer takes a bit of the edge off. I know some say that it shouldn't make a difference but I always respond to that by saying "what would a lacquered cymbal sound like..." :)
_________________
'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9013
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Can anyone tell me if the new Committee is only available as a large bore horn as on their web page, or do they offer a medium bore horn as well. Thanks.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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