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kramergfy
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 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:04 am Post subject: 65 Vindabona |
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I have an Early Elkhart 72 Vindabona in my procession that I’m interested in restoring. The 72 corp. Bell that’s on it right now has evidence of extensive repair so I’m not married to keeping it original. My question is if anyone has experience with the 65 Bell version of the Vindabona, and more specifically would the lightweight 65 be a good idea? My intention is to get an even darker sound, but maintain the response with a lighter bell. Projection isn’t a concern; this more of a small space/mic jazz horn that would hopefully be almost flugelhorn like with the right mouthpiece. Any thoughts? Goldbrass 65*?
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:45 am Post subject: |
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The 65 bell, like the 25 and 238, trace their roots back to early Bach bells and his experiments to create a more Teutonic sound, particularly for use on rotaries. As such, the 65 is likely to match better with the old 7 leadpipe that Bach created at the same time with a darker tone, and lower resistance to support maintaining a darker tone without exhaustion, in mind. The Early Elkhart 72 will have a standard 25 pipe that is less suited to your ballad horn goal.
A "lightweight bell" is simply a Mt. Vernon era standard weight bell, and will not brighten while indeed lessening the energy necessary to speak - a little. Worth noting as far as the response goal is concerned is that Bach architecture is quite responsive to overall mass, and the L bore body (same OD, bigger ID to the tubing) has a noticeable impact in that regard - as Holton found out by accident when making the TM-2000 collector horns out of spare lightweight bodies and heavier bells.
Bottom line, I am not sure you are starting with the best donor horn based on your goals. If you are looking for a dark, jazz, stand-in for a flugel, trumpet, I suggest visiting Austin Winds in Austin TX (not to be confused with ACB in Kansas). That is their specialty. Their Stage 466s incorporate Andy Taylor's advances in efficiency that make heavy horns play with the energy demand of lightweights. Their darkest horns do too, but the mechanics are so extreme that it balances out to a fairly normal feel - and sounds like a flugel.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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What I’ve been told is that at the Vindabona models came stock with an umarked 43 pipe; visually this looks right as it looks larger than a 25 pipe. I was already thinking about the 7 pipe by the way, so that makes sense to me. I should have mentioned before that I’m not looking for a new instrument, just trying to breathe new life into this one. Ideally if I can improve the sound for my needs at the same time that would be ideal.
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lipshurt
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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I had a bach vindabona 65 medium bore in lacquer made in about 1968 or so.
I played it as my main horn for about a year.
What a horrible year that was. I wanted to like the horn, but when i dumped it for a mediocre 37 standard Bach that was the best thing i ever did. The 65 vindabona was awful. It got a decent sound, but the response was awful, and also the upper register was terrible.
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Irving
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| If I were you I'd look for another horn that suits your needs. If you start modifying your horn, there is a good chance that you won't like it. Look for a horn that you like and sell the Vindobona. A 65 lightweight bell might cost you over $500, plus the work. Not worth it if you end up not liking the results. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| kramergfy wrote: | | What I’ve been told is that at the Vindabona models came stock with an umarked 43 pipe; visually this looks right as it looks larger than a 25 pipe. I was already thinking about the 7 pipe by the way, so that makes sense to me. I should have mentioned before that I’m not looking for a new instrument, just trying to breathe new life into this one. Ideally if I can improve the sound for my needs at the same time that would be ideal. |
Matching a 43 pipe to a 65 bell is a balancing measure to try and pull things back more to "normal". For instance, Flip's Wild Thing uses a bell that is even broader than the 65 going into the flare, and while of different materials/annealing/etc., that taper was used by some other Kanstul customers as well for dark, jazz-oriented products. Flip found that his unique design had broader appeal and that he could better support the needs of his customers by switching to the more open and brighter 43 pipe (from the 25-O). It made the Wild Thing a great horn, but is heading in the opposite direction from what you are seeking.
If the 72 is in bad shape, and you want to tinker as a learning experience, the only harm in going for it is you are not going to get your money back. We only learn by trying, and you could see some marginal results if you select the right combination of elements - I'm curious myself how a 7 pipe and a lightweight 65 bell would interact on the mass of a standard ML body with MLV slide - I'ld say the odds are under 50/50, but you never know till you try.
If your focus is on playing, save your money, sell the 72 for whatever it will bring in current condition, and buy a horn that is purpose-built with a proven track record (Calicchio Copper Solo, Austin Winds Balanced Ballad, etc.)
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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fblues
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Joined: 04 Mar 2017
Posts: 88
Location: Bethlehem, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Matching a 43 pipe to a 65 bell is a balancing measure to try and pull things back more to "normal". For instance, Flip's Wild Thing uses a bell that is even broader than the 65 going into the flare, and while of different materials/annealing/etc., that taper was used by some other Kanstul customers as well for dark, jazz-oriented products. Flip found that his unique design had broader appeal and that he could better support the needs of his customers by switching to the more open and brighter 43 pipe (from the 25-O). It made the Wild Thing a great horn, but is heading in the opposite direction from what you are seeking. |
I have a Vindabona horn with a 65G bell.
It has 44 a leadpipe and also a rounded tuning slide.
(I believe it is essentially identical with the 43 pipe.)
I have no ability to evaluate this horn objectively.
At least for me, this is a fantastic horn. I love it so much.
Hope you can eventually reach your goal! |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:16 am Post subject: |
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The 44 leadpipe is a faster taper, even more open pipe, not far from a straight pipe. It tends toward a very bright, edgy and loose slotting result in most pairings. Paired with a 65G that's mixing the brightest loosest leadpipe with the heaviest, darkest, most energy-absorbing bell. A bit bi-polar as designs go, but if it works, it works.
Are you saying you have a single-radius MLV slide? I have not heard of that option (Vindabona bore is exclusively in the tuning slide)
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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fblues
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Joined: 04 Mar 2017
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Location: Bethlehem, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | The 44 leadpipe is a faster taper, even more open pipe, not far from a straight pipe. It tends toward a very bright, edgy and loose slotting result in most pairings. Paired with a 65G that's mixing the brightest loosest leadpipe with the heaviest, darkest, most energy-absorbing bell. A bit bi-polar as designs go, but if it works, it works.
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Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware of the information.
Yes, it is a heavy horn but I also saw a Vindabona horn with a 65GH bell.
I think it would be heavier than 65G bell.
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Are you saying you have a single-radius MLV slide? I have not heard of that option (Vindabona bore is exclusively in the tuning slide)
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Yes. It is a MLV horn and the tuning slide is round.
(It looks like a single-radius tuning slide searched from the web.)
I left this horn in the State but I remember this because
I felt the instrument was very open and big when I played it.
(And my guess was due to the rounded slide.)
I am not fully understanding the concept of Vindabona horn.
However, based on your comment, the tuning slide is a key factor of it.
It feels a bit sad because if you haven't heard about it
then it is possible this horn was modified by someone later.
But, it might be okay in itself!  |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Vindabona Bachs are outfitted with a tuning slide that expands in bore through the slide (some people call this a dual bore horn as a result). I have only seen these as standard Bach square-ish slides, but maybe Bach offers the rounded as well. However, you can put a standard Bach slide (no bore taper) into a horn originally sold with a Vindabona slide, converting it to non-Vindabona.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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rockford
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Vincent Bach totally dropped the 65 bell in favor of the 72. After Selmer bought the company and moved to Elkhart, they resurrected it as an option. It’s not very popular.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190. |
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| rockford wrote: | | Vincent Bach totally dropped the 65 bell in favor of the 72. After Selmer bought the company and moved to Elkhart, they resurrected it as an option. It’s not very popular. |
Any details about why that is? I’ve never played a 65 before.
FYI I do have the horn in question for sale here, so his is simply fishing for alternative ideas.
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cmcox118
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 72 Vindabona of the same age and I love it. If you were able to find another bell, then I would suggest that. I think that it has a great sound with the combination and it plays great as well. This just my opinion, so I wish you luck in coming to a suitable decision!
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lipshurt
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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The 44 pipe is the same dimension as the 43 pipe. The dif is the 44 is made of nickel, and nickel sounds a lot different than brass.
I remember my Medium bore 453 vindabona having a 453 slide crook untapered and a 445 top inner slide tube. It’s been a while since I’ve had it though
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Danbassin
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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For what it's worth, I happened to open this thread after checking out this new addition to Thompson Music's for sale stock: https://thompsonmusic.com/product/usedbachstradivariusmlvvindabona65gbbtrumpetsn437657/
Lightweight Goldbrass 65 bell, with that odd pairing of the zippy, nickel-not-brass 44 leadpipe. Cool-looking horn!
Happy practicing!
-DB
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I play:
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:04 am Post subject: |
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Unique horns with features I like are dangerous to my budget. But in this case, the distortions in the bell reflection next to the bell crest are enough to make me steer clear of this particular 1995 Bach.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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