Bai Lin: How to approach skipping partials on lip slurs?

[kevin_soda]

I'm just curious if anyone has a specific approach for lip slurs that skip partials. I've been doing the first 10-13 exercises in the Bai Lin and it's mostly decent but I have a hard time with #3 on Bb trumpet. It's fine on C and I can do #4 much better on both horns. I'm also fine with #8. Sometimes the note pops into place but not centered. Sometimes there's a delay in sound, like a breath attack. Sometimes it's great, and easy, and awesome. Such is life.
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Kevin

[mdarnton]

I am not qualified to answer, but since no one is touching this.....

I'm currently working on this, myself, and what the problem is for me is to get all of the various bits that have to happen to occur instantaneously (that is, quickly in the shortest possible moment), and all at the exact same instant. When I do that, it works, but it's a real coordination problem for me--if one thing isn't precisely there with the rest, it doesn't happen. Do it as a snap, not a slide.

Depending on your philosophy of playing, and I know there are a lot of disagreeing theories, this means changing, for instance, lip aperture, air, and tongue all exactly together, along with whatever is happening in your mind, and do it all without anything extreme as a crutch--like, for instance such a puff of air that the upper note is accented beyond what's called for. Then when that works, practice that until it's reliable.

That's my plan, anyway, for where I'm at now. I know nothing about you, but I'm pretty much a beginner. The other thing I need to habituate is to normally set my embochure for a high range and that helps with this problem if you're the type who changes his mouth around a lot for range changes.

Apologies if this is all too basic for where you're at.

[Dayton]

[kevin_soda]

[kevin_soda]

[quote="Dayton"]There are a few techniques that I think are helpful. First is to make sure you can really "hear" the note you are trying to play. In #3, where you are doing the one octave intervals from C-C (and B-B, Bb-Bb, etc.) you need to think of what the C sounds like. That helps you to set for the right note, and not the G in between. Use a piano, keyboard, or app if it helps.[/qoute]

This is super helpful! I think because #3 starts on G, I'm losing the sound of the octave. Also, this would explain my variation from Bb to C trumpet because my Bb trumpet is sharp on low C where my C trumpet is more in tune!

[solo soprano]

[JoseLindE4]

Sometimes, trying to avoid catching in-between notes in wider slurs can increase our likelihood of catching them. If we’re timid about those notes, we can alter our air in unproductive ways. If we free ourselves to bump those notes as in a rip, and then just focus on the timing of the action, the unwanted notes often disappear.

In lessons or in my own practice, I usually start from intentionally hitting the in-between notes. If the player can, I’ll even have them flutter tongue the slur to make sure the air is “on” and doesn’t turn off even briefly. Once the rip is free and obnoxious, we’ll work on coordinating the timing a la Caruso (subdividing 16ths) until the unwanted notes disappear. Then it’s just a matter of repetition until this mindset becomes the norm.

[solo soprano]

[abontrumpet]

For me, part of efficiency is keeping vibration intact between every connected note. What that means is: like singing, every slur is not an instantaneous "snap" but rather an incredibly quick "gliss." A "snap" means a break in vibration. Eventually your gliss will sound like a snap but we have to think of it as a gliss.

So, like solo soprano said, we need to cultivate the gliss (catching notes in between). A practical approach to this can be seen in Thompson's buzzing book. When we are playing most efficiently, we are letting the horn dictate the proper placement of notes (i.e., the horn temporarily locks our lips/vibration into a vibration cycle as we pass by the "slot") so if we were to play from low c to high c, all the notes should catch (elephant calls). Then we just need to quicken the time it takes to complete the gliss.

Kind of complex to explain, but very easy to show. Best I can show is this video by Bill Vermeulen. Go to about 2:20. (he's talking about horn breaks, but the principle is the same).

https://musaic.nws.edu/videos/developing-a-more-efficient-buzz-stream

PS. Any work with "vowels" need to to serve the sound. Playing with a terrible sound but the "right vowel" means there is a mis-match. I prefer to let what naturally wants to happen happen instead of controlling it consciously. Get the right sound and usually that means its the right vowel.

[cheiden]

I agree that overtone series studies that skip partials does require greater coordination than ones that don't skip partials. In order to cleanly skip partials I have to make sure all the mechanics are working. I find it helps to use a light touch and strive to find the right amount of lips, pivot, tongue,... that make the notes snap.
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Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[gwood66]

There are exercises in the Del Staigers flexibility book that skip a partial. The instructions say to use the syllable "Ha" to avoid the glissando.

[solo soprano]

[JayKosta]

From some of the descriptions, it seems that the interval change is not really a 'slur', but a smooth unaccented 'air attack' of the following note with no (or just a tiny) break between the notes.

Getting the movement between notes to be unaccented and without a noticeable break is the skill.

Expecting to do that with the same ease as a downward 'valve slur' is very frustrating.

Also, some music is notated so that 'phrase marking' looks very similar to 'slur' (or 'tie') marking.
If the curved line is directly from note-head-to-note-head, it is likely intended to be a true slur or tie. If the curved line is written with noticeable vertical separation from the note heads (above or below) then I interpret that as a phrase marking, to be played as smoothly as possible but not demanding a 'perfect slur' (and in many cases I'm not skillful enough to do it as a slur).

edit - examples of combined slur / tie / phrase markings , see Arban's duet section, #46 Last Rose of Summer - 2nd measure of the 2nd strain, and #60 Freischutz - 19th full measure.

Jay
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[John Mohan]

To skip in-between harmonics while slurring, rapid (almost instant) tongue arch change from the position the tongue is in for the lower note to the position it needs to be in for the higher note (or the other way around if slurring downward) is needed. Also, in the case of slurring upward a "kick" of air is required. Instead of just thinking "ah" to "eee" with the tongue, one should go from "ah" to "Hee" with the tongue and air.

The Bai Lin book is a very good book but it is an advanced flexibilities book and its difficulty builds very quickly (as the OP has found out). One should go through the books Twenty-Seven Groups of Exercises by Earl D. Irons, Colin's Lip Flexibilities book and Lip Flexibilities on the Trumpet by Walter M. Smith before attempting the Bai Lin book. It would also be very helpful to first work one's way at least through the first section of Claude Gordon's book Daily Trumpet Routines before attempting the Bai Lin book as well, because Daily Trumpet Routines has a lot of exercises in it where one slurs between notes skipping notes in between, but does this at an easier, simpler level before slowly progressing to higher and more difficult exercises.

Of course, doing as I suggest takes time - actually several years at least. As my teacher wrote:

[Jaw04]

I think it’s good to do the slur slowly and connect the partials in between so that you aren’t overshooting the jump. I like to hit the partials in between along the way at first and then speed it up and eventually begin to skip the partials in between. I also like to do a glissando buzzing the mouthpiece slowly. I would rather hear a little bit of the partial in between, then to overshoot or get a crappy sound on the higher note.

[cheiden]

I find that always doing this kind of study that doesn't skip partials allow me to be lazy and just use incremental pressure which has always been my nemesis. For this reason, Irons exercises are far more likely to cause me to get stiff. So even though Bain Lin may in some regards be more advanced, I find that carefully applied, it's more productive and produces less fatigue.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Don Herman rev2]

There is also Eric Bolvin's book: https://bolvinmusic.com/product/tongue-level-air/
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[kevin_soda]

[cheiden]

[kevin_soda]

I worked with my teacher on this yesterday and there were three big adjustments that made a world of difference.

1.) Subdivision! Subdividing to 16ths helps prevent the anticipation of the next pitch, a la Caruso, and, thus, reduces unconscious shifts.

2.) Deeper, more complete breath!

3.) Blowing through the sound as if descending! We tried playing G in the staff to C below and then G below using the same rhythm as written in the first measure of #3; then playing as written but thinking of descending.

These adjustments made the notes more responsive and resonant. Super helpful.
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Kevin