long vs short shank cornet mouthpiece

[bspickler]

I've been experimenting with different cornet mouthpieces and wonder if anyone can explain the difference between the long and short shank pieces. I've settled back on my Mt. Vern 3C which I guess is like a current 1 1/2 C. It's a little more trumpet-like but it seems to be best for me.

Bill
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Bill

[cheiden]

For contemporary instruments, using Yamaha as a guide, the deep open mouthpieces favored by British brass bands are typically only offered in short shank. The long shank offerings don't include the really deep and open models.
From what I can see, for purposes other than BBB the long shank is likely what you'll need. Cruise MouthpieceExpress.com to see what I mean.

Be aware that vintage horns were offered with a variety of shanks often referred to as long and short shank but these are often not at all the same as the contemporary ones.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[lipshurt]

because the short is shorter by about 1/4 inch the mouthpiece is sharper that a long shank, if everything else is equal. That is why deep cups have to be short shank. Other wise they would be flat, because a very deep cup is simply flatter than a shallow cup. Likewise shallow cups generally need to be long shank, so you dont have to pull the slide too much.

The transition point is about a 3C depth, which pretty much has to long shank.
A 7C depth can work as a long or short shank. Deeper than a 7C (7C is quite a bit deeper than a 3c as we all know) has to be short shank.

There is a bit more to it of course. The short shank also has a way shorter throat section which brings up the upper register on deep cups. so the octaves are more in tune, or almost perfectly in tune.

the backbores on both are about the same length (using conn 4 as example).


The long shank is longer mainly in the throat section, and with a shallower cup the throat section gets even longer. You need that to keep the upper register Down with a shalloer that 3C cup depth.

If you play a 7C depth or heim depth or similar, then if your upper register (B above the staff) is sharp then go to a longer shank.

If you are sharp up high with a shallow cup even if you are already playing a long shank, you cna go a bit longer and bring down the upper B natural by getting a custom shank that is about .050 longer. That is a real good way to get a conn 80a to pop with a 3c.
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Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
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[adc]

All I know is that all my pre-1920 cornets came with short shank. I use a Yamaha 11C3 short shank for all of them actually the old Conns took one midway between the Yamaha short and a normal length. Not what it is supposed to have but the sound is good. And a 11C3 regular is what I use for my newer Cornets.
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Too many Old Cornets to Count

[bspickler]

Thanks all. There doesn''t seem to be a simple answer. So I'm using a Mt Vernon 3C (long) and a Warburton BCB (short) interchangeably.
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Bill

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I'm just bumping this because I recently bought two yamaha mouthpieces and am trying them on a jupiter cornet I have.

One is short shank (16e) and the other long shank (17C4). I've played the trumpet versions of 16b4/17c4 and like them both.

I will say I find the short shank mouthpieces harder to articulate on and also less responsive slurring or moving between intervals.

I am guessing this is just the result of a deeper cup? Do I just need to give it time?

I haven't spent much time on cornet but am enjoying it. I notice some difference in sound (16e deeper/rounder/broader; 17c4 maybe slightly bigger sound) but honestly both sound pretty good to me.

[iiipopes]

I disagree with all the above.

The short shank was developed in England for what developed as their cornet tradition. The tradition included mellower tones, and therefore the mouthpieces historically and contemporaneously have deeper cups. Why the shanks are shorter is lost in time, but like anything else, once a mechanical standard becomes established, it is that way forever.

The long shank was developed in the USA to go with what we now call "long cornets" in concert bands. Conn and King had proprietary variants of shank taper (which I believe were also in-between in length as well) that they used in their instruments, and probably York and Reynolds also, before everybody finally adopted the Bach "standard." Again, following Bach, the cups tended to be shallower and rounded compared to British brass band mouthpieces, for more projection.

Because of the close associations, we hardly hear of V cups in American mouthpieces, although they are there, for example the Bach 5V and the Curry BBC, and antiques such as the King MC and others.

There is nothing magical in the shank. Modern mouthpieces of both types have the same tip diameter and the same taper. The only difference I know of are the Yamaha short mouthpieces which have a smaller tip and so may not fit many other brands of cornet receivers.

I have a 921 Globe Stamp, restored, and I have both a Wick 4B and a GEWA 1 1/2 C (GEWA is a German company which makes good quality but lesser expensive musical items, including copies of famous mouthpieces [like Faxx in the USA] and this mouthpiece is more like a Bach 3C, but with a slightly darker backbore). The Wick is short shank, the GEWA is long shank. Both fit the receiver of my 921 and both go in about the same amount. The only external difference is the GEWA is, of course, longer, so I have to slightly adjust my main tuning slide accordingly. The 4B is, of course, the typical British tone; the GEWA is brighter, more "trumpety." Ironically, the darker backbore of the GEWA keeps the tone tamed, compared to my Bach 3C cornet mouthpiece which sounds blatty.

This is my understanding and experience. YMMV.
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King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet

[Halflip]

The 'piece that is deep must be shorter by a quarter.
The shank that is long has the tone that's in tune.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"

[stuartissimo]

[Halflip]

[cbtj51]