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playing high with large front teeth, is it possible


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debruintrump
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

This week I was thinking and wondering if there are players with large front teeth who can really play well in the high register. Can you name some ?

For quite a long time I have the feeling that with larger front teeth it is more difficult to let the lips vibrate easily. Especially the upper lip.

High note guys seem to have rather average or small front teeth and some very famous players did even make their front teeth shorter.

What do you think ?
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't fault you for trying to understand the mechanics. I've spent an awful lot of time doing the same. But I feel very strongly that before you consider modifying your teeth on a hope and prayer that it will unlock high notes, that you instead make a modest investment in lessons with a top pro. If they don't fault your teeth and you make progress it will save you a lot of pain and $$$.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: playin hight with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

debruintrump wrote:
... I have the feeling that with larger front teeth it is more difficult to let the lips vibrate easily. Especially the upper lip. ...

-----------------------------------------------------
I think that many people fail to 'LET the lips vibrate easily'. Perhaps by using too much top lip pressure against the upper portion of the rim, or by pressing the lip too tightly together in the hope of achieving for higher pitches. If the lip tissue is being held immobile, or a suitable aperture can't be obtained, then there won't be any vibrations.

The (usually upper) lip must be able to vibrate (tension and aperture), and internal oral cavity air pressure must be adequate to cause air flow thru the aperture to activate the vibrations.

I get promising results by pressing my lower teeth more firmly against the rim, and lessening the amount of rim pressure on my upper teeth. I don't attempt to change the angle of the horn in relation to my face/teeth - just changing the the amount of rim pressure on the upper and lower teeth. Changing the tongue position also has an effect on jaw position - both forward/backward, and upper lower teeth separation.

Jay
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trombone Shorty has pretty big teeth I suppose, Louis Armstrong as well. Kind of hard to say. Unless you've got some very unusual dental formation or some extreme buck teeth and a short lip I wouldn't spend energy worrying about it. I'm assuming you are thinking about your own teeth.
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debruintrump
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps all the big front teeth players already quitted, out of frustration.

Am not planning anything on my teeth at this moment. As a matter of fact i havent been playing for a while.

Anyway, I had hoped for a couple more of positive expamples , i could be spot on with this.........
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

debruintrump wrote:
Perhaps all the big front teeth players already quitted, out of frustration.

Am not planning anything on my teeth at this moment. As a matter of fact i havent been playing for a while.

Anyway, I had hoped for a couple more of positive expamples , i could be spot on with this.........
How big are we talking? I dont notice trumpet players teeth being any different than the general population. Can you show me an example of someoe with "big front teeth" ? Trombone Shorty has what I would call big front teeth and has range and power on the trumpet and trombone all day every day.
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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many high-note players that set-up by pulling their top lip down noticeably so the aperture is below the lower edge of the top teeth. Maynard, Faddis, Chase, etc.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan wrote:
There are many high-note players that set-up by pulling their top lip down noticeably so the aperture is below the lower edge of the top teeth. Maynard, Faddis, Chase, etc.

I'd be surprised to find anyone whose aperture wasn't below the edge of the upper incisors.
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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
I'd be surprised to find anyone whose aperture wasn't below the edge of the upper incisors.


Yes, I guess I worded that poorly. My point is that some notable players with relatively large front teeth have found success in playing in the upper register, which requires they intentionally pull their top lips down, and it appears they use the mouthpiece rim to aid in the process. Most players don't need to do this, their aperture naturally falls below the edge of their front teeth. That's based on my personal observations, but I do recall reading an interview where Maynard talked about his needing to pull his lip down in this manner.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

debruintrump wrote:
This week I was thinking and wondering if there are players with large front teeth who can really play well in the high register. Can you name some ?

For quite a long time I have the feeling that with larger front teeth it is more difficult to let the lips vibrate easily. Especially the upper lip.

High note guys seem to have rather average or small front teeth and some very famous players did even make their front teeth shorter.

What do you think ?


While I'd urge you to always think positive I'm still impressed by your question. It's a good one and points to some basic physics which most trumpet players and embouchure systems ignore. But first I need to make a correction. Which is that,

Only the top lip vibrates. Not as your post says "both lips". There's an easy proof here. Because if both of your lips did vibrate, then how the hell could both maintain the same identical pitch at the same time? Couldn't happen. In fact during those cases where the lower lip actually does interfere and start vibrating we call these unwanted notes the most unpleasant "wolf tones". These are more common on lower brass instruments. I used to get them on my slide trombone during loud phrases at the end of a long concert. OMG they were ugly though laughable. During this condition my upper lip had tired so much that it had gone half stiff as a board. Then as I reached back for a little more air power? My lower lip actually started making "moose in heat" calls. Lol a couple in the audience noticed and they got a kick out of it. But as for me? I was horrified.

So only your upper lip vibrates the air column. Granted it may feel like both chops vibrate but this is because the lower lip feels the air oscillate too.

Now by having large upper teeth my suggestion would be for you to go to the mirror and check what area of your upper teeth is covered when your upper lip is in it's natural position. The late Roy Stevens prescribed that all trumpet players who struggled with range should make sure that their upper lip was pushed down so that it not only covered the upper teeth but actually descended just a tad below the upper teeth line. In my life I have found this suggestion to be the greatest piece of advice ever.

As because most trumpet players have upper lips that rise up above their upper teeth. With less lip flesh left to vibrate? The tone will always cut off and usually around a high C.

Questions? Bug me about this. Unfortunately most trumpet players with a bad cut-off point will usually ignore this suggestion. However those that do ought to see their range increase from a mere high C to an actual high G! And this will happened pretty much instantly. No foolin! Good luck my friend.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
Only the top lip vibrates. Not as your post says "both lips". There's an easy proof here. Because if both of your lips did vibrate, then how the hell could both maintain the same identical pitch at the same time? Couldn't happen.

I don't believe that's correct.

If I play say a middle G and then increase the pressure on the bottom lip the note stops speaking. If it were true that only the top lip vibrates the balance of pressure shouldn't make any difference but it does.
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chrisf3000
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have one front tooth that is slightly more prominent than the other - it sticks out slightly. One time my dentist asked me if I'd like my front teeth bonded to make them more even. Being younger and pretty naive at the time, I said yes. After going home, I discovered that I had immediately lost a fifth from my upper range, going from easily playing a C above the staff to barely being able to get out of the staff. I had it removed and problem solved.

That's my way of saying, yes, I think teeth shape and size may play a role in being able to play higher. The good news is that there are now mouthpieces like Greg Black's BP mouthpiece that is specifically designed to spread the pressure out over the rim as well as the embouchure. They allow the lip to buzz freely and come in 3c and 1-1/2c sizes. Personally, I have had great success with students that have had braces as well as thicker lips with the BP. No reason this couldn't be something for you to try as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:34 am    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
... The late Roy Stevens prescribed that all trumpet players who struggled with range should make sure that their upper lip was pushed down so that it not only covered the upper teeth but actually descended just a tad below the upper teeth line. In my life I have found this suggestion to be the greatest piece of advice ever.

As because most trumpet players have upper lips that rise up above their upper teeth. With less lip flesh left to vibrate? The tone will always cut off and usually around a high C.
...

----------------------------------------------------
The critical issue is that the upper lip has to be ABLE to vibrate. If there isn't adequate lip tissue in the aperture that is flexible, that's a problem. And a solution might be to consciously expose more 'unsupported' (flexible) tissue by adjusting the amount of upper lip below the front teeth.

note: and similarly for lower lip if it's found to be beneficial

1) Flexible lip tissue with the correct amount of tension.
2) Adequate air flow (pressure and volume) to cause lip vibration.

Jay
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debruintrump
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everybody for your input.

Another way to get more lip exposure could be strong corners and pulling them a bit in.

I have bigger than average front teeth but my lips seem also bigger than average. In the past my upper front teeth were more in an overbite position. . I regret having had braces because it is a more difficult now. And i have more cramp feeling in the cheeks.

We didnt discuss the tongue. Any ideas about that ? Looking a several youtube clips , i am getting the idea that more famous players used this, but then i get into this tce thing, wich seems rather difficult .


I canĀ“t play here without mute so am thinking of buying a yamaha silent brass system. Perhaps that would be fun.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

debruintrump wrote:
This week I was thinking and wondering if there are players with large front teeth who can really play well in the high register. Can you name some ?

For quite a long time I have the feeling that with larger front teeth it is more difficult to let the lips vibrate easily. Especially the upper lip.

High note guys seem to have rather average or small front teeth and some very famous players did even make their front teeth shorter.

What do you think ?


I have large front teeth and I have no problems with the upper register (when I was practicing and performing regularly I was reaching as high as G above Double High C in my range studies and able to perform up to Double High C).

Don't be trying to have your teeth changed - that would be the beginning of the end.

If you practice the correct material correctly, your high notes will develop right along with the rest of the machine.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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tombrown1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

debruintrump wrote:
This week I was thinking and wondering if there are players with large front teeth who can really play well in the high register. Can you name some ?

For quite a long time I have the feeling that with larger front teeth it is more difficult to let the lips vibrate easily. Especially the upper lip.

High note guys seem to have rather average or small front teeth and some very famous players did even make their front teeth shorter.

What do you think ?



I've wondered about this for quite some time and think it has merit.

Players whose front teeth don't hang below adjacent teeth:

Arturo
Maynard
Diz
Satch
Maurice Andre
Doc (I think)
Phil Smith
Rex Richardson
Wayne
Sean Jones (I think)
Schlueter
Brisbois


Jon Faddis has teeth that hang down, but he has a massive gap.


There are some notable exceptions of players with great range and teeth that hang down some:

Caleb Hudson
Tom Hooten
David Bilger



Couldn't find good pics of Wynton, Bud, or Bill Chase, and of course I'm leaving out tons of amazing players.

Length of the front teeth obviously has a huge impact on how you play. It's right at the point where the wind meets the vibrating lip. If the wind has to go around the front teeth before hitting the vibration point, then of course inefficiency exists.

The elephant in the room is there's no going back if you file them down. So the question is how much does it hurt you. That's almost impossible to say. Trumpet's hard enough without having to fight through overhanging front teeth. But then again, is there harm in filing?

I'm in no place to answer that, and I don't know anybody who is. Have to admit I'm thinking about trying it though...


Best,

Tom
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Lionel wrote:
Only the top lip vibrates. Not as your post says "both lips". There's an easy proof here. Because if both of your lips did vibrate, then how the hell could both maintain the same identical pitch at the same time? Couldn't happen.

I don't believe that's correct.

If I play say a middle G and then increase the pressure on the bottom lip the note stops speaking. If it were true that only the top lip vibrates the balance of pressure shouldn't make any difference but it does.


Sometimes we read but don't or can't comprehend. So please, if you will re-read my own words in the above quote starting with,

"There's an easy proof here" and continue on until it sinks in. If indeed it ever does. In fact I suggest that you analyze this while emphasizing my word "easy". I put it there because the statement going along with it is an easily made observation. I'm not trying to make fun of you here but it did concern me that your observation, or lack of it might lead to eventual confusion.

It's certainly not a major sticking point for everyone. Just as one doesn't necessarily need to understand the influence of ultraviolet light in order to get a suntan. However if someone needs to understand the inner workings of the embouchure then the knowledge of upper and lower lip function/usage may be critical. Just as the front and rear car axles differ in function and composition.

In your case you've confused effect with cause. You assume that because you apply increased mouthpiece pressure to your lower lip and then the tone stops, that this is due to the added pressure preventing the lower lip from vibrating. Wrong! Lol.

Although the lower lip does not vibrate it is still a crucial factor at assisting the upper which DOES vibrate. By adding substantial pressure to your lower lip you've simply pushed it out of a position where it can assist the upper lip in the occilation of the air stream. This point was made clear to a panel of well recognized brass teachers who were adjudicating a number of trombonists wishing to enter the all state band competition in California some years ago. An old friend of mine was on this panel and he explained what happened.

The panel of educators had been much impressed by a high school trombonist who played with impeccable tone and musicality. Well at least up to the point where his audition began to involve articulation. In fact prior to this point the group was seriously considering choosing him for the distinguished first chair position. However upon being asked to produce a series of staccato sixteenth notes this otherwise capable trombonist stuttered badly. In fact his technique totally fell apart! One second earlier he was king of the audition. The next he was uttering a terrible sound. His articulation sounding more like a moose in heat.

After a short discussion and some analysis this friend of mine figured it out. This boy was absolutely the strangest case any of these distinguished educators had ever run into. Take note here because this is an amazing if highly unusual situation.

The young fellow was totally self taught. Never had a teacher. Learned to read music by himself and everything. Both his slide technique, and breath support were very good. As was his embouchure. Well? At least when it came to creating a tone. Because by not having a teacher the boy never learned to use his lower lip inside the mouthpiece!!!!

This is an incredible story folks. The boy had learned to blow trombone BY USING HIS TONGUE IN PLACE OF HIS LOWER LIP!!!

I've even tried this and yes it can be done but there is no benefit. Especially when it comes to articulation which is essentially impossible according to standard practices. With his tongue being used to control his embouchure instead of his lip? These was no way for him to stop and start the tone. He couldn't "tongue" because his tongue was already being employed at assisting his upper lip instead of the conventional use of the lower lip to regulate the upper.

The upshot of this was that the fellow swiftly learned to form his embouchure correctly. He was greatly pleased at finally conquering the task of tonguing. I was never told if he ended up keeping his first chair position. However this story alone was most instructive. The lower lip is essential at assisting the upper lip in performance. And while the tongue can replace the lower lip at least in the production of just tone it is still the lower lip that is crucial ordinary playing. Or if you want an analogy.

In a front wheel drive car the rear wheels only roll and brake a little. Meanwhile the front wheels steer, apply power and participate in 80% of all braking. However as important as the front wheels are?

You can't drive anywhere without rear wheels and axle. Similarly while the function of the lower lip is more limited than the upper? Just like the rear wheel-less car, you won't get very far without it.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
Robert P wrote:
Lionel wrote:
Only the top lip vibrates. Not as your post says "both lips". There's an easy proof here. Because if both of your lips did vibrate, then how the hell could both maintain the same identical pitch at the same time? Couldn't happen.

I don't believe that's correct.

If I play say a middle G and then increase the pressure on the bottom lip the note stops speaking. If it were true that only the top lip vibrates the balance of pressure shouldn't make any difference but it does.


Sometimes we read but don't or can't comprehend. So please, if you will re-read my own words in the above quote starting with

I comprehend fine, I still say you're wrong. Your latest wall of words doesn't change this.

If you want a more obvious demonstration that both lips vibrate watch them using a visualizer - you can *see* them both vibrate. Both lips extend past the teeth and are in the airstream, there's no reason the bottom lip wouldn't vibrate. Your "simple proof" isn't proof.

All your boy with the non-standard embouchure did was vibrate his tongue instead of his bottom lip.

Here 'ya go. Clear slow-mo video - both lips are vibrating.


Link

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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do believe it is possible for brass musicians to play successfully with all sorts of different anatomical features, including "large front teeth." It is crucial for the player to work with, rather than against, their anatomy, however.

In my opinion it's not so much the details of any single physiological feature, like the size of your front teeth, but rather the relationship of those characteristics combined. For example, it's not so much the length of the teeth and gums but their relationship to the length of the lips. Does the player have a short upper lip and long teeth and gum? Then the player will be "stretching" his or her upper lip down to bring them into position more than a player with a long upper lip and short upper teeth and gums. These, and other, anatomical features will influence the musician's embouchure technique.

Both lips do vibrate when playing, but it's more nuanced than that. One lip will vibrate with more intensity than the other lip. The lip with more rim contact will typically vibrate with less intensity. Which lip should get more rim contact depends again on the player's anatomy. Most brass players will want to place the mouthpiece with more upper lip inside the mouthpiece and so the lower lip will vibrate with less intensity than the upper. A minority of players will play opposite, with more lower lip inside and more rim contact on the upper lip.

Lloyd Leno used high speed filming to show how the lips vibrate with trombonists. There have been some others that have replicated what Leno did, mostly using strobe lighting to simulate the high speed film. It's essentially the same for all brass instruments, just smaller or larger depending on the size of the mouthpiece.


Link



Link



Link


I have put together a resource on brass embouchure technique that some of you may find interesting. It is designed to help teachers, rather than players looking for help with their embouchures, but you might find it useful.

http://www.wilktone.com/?page_id=5619

Dave
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:23 am    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
...
Only the top lip vibrates. Not as your post says "both lips". There's an easy proof here. Because if both of your lips did vibrate, then how the hell could both maintain the same identical pitch at the same time? Couldn't happen. In fact during those cases where the lower lip actually does interfere and start vibrating we call these unwanted notes the most unpleasant "wolf tones".
...
So only your upper lip vibrates the air column. Granted it may feel like both chops vibrate but this is because the lower lip feels the air oscillate too.
...

-------------------------------
I don't understand how it is possible for the bottom lip to not vibrate AT ALL.

I agree that the upper lip does most of the vibrating that produces and controls the sound pitch and loudness. And as you say, the "lower lip feels the air oscillate too" - so I think the lower lip is also vibrating somewhat. And those small lower lip vibrations do influence the overall 'air column' vibrations - simply because the lower lip is present as a moving part.

If the lower lip vibrations BECOME out of phase with the upper lip, then the sound production is affected - and likely not in a good way.

And yes, I consider this a minor point, but still part of the complicated mechanics of what all is happening with the embouchure.

Jay
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