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The Bach Long Cornet (181)


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weezintrumpeteer
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:40 am    Post subject: The Bach Long Cornet (181) Reply with quote

You don't hear much about these, and they're (relatively) inexpensive.

I know the short cornets are far more popular around here, but I thought I'd ask about the long model. What different options did these have? Which ones played the best? How good are they?

I ask because I recently was remembering about a Bach long model that I played in high school. It was owned by the school (they had about 10 of them), and being 1st trumpet, I got to pick the one I liked best.

Now, it might be my rosy memory, but I can swear that it was the best playing instrument I have ever played (including all of the instruments I have now). I have such fond memories of that horn. I've offered to purchase it from them a few times, but haven't lately..perhaps I'll try again I have no idea what model it was or what options it had (bell, etc).

Anyway, impressions of these? Which is the one to get?
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played a couple nice ML ones with the 37 bell, one I borrowed back in the 70's for a couple months when I needed a good cornet and didn't have one. It was an early Elkhart and played like a dream, but the owner wouldn't sell it. I almost bought a large bore one (don't remember what bell was on it) back in the late 80's - it really played nice. It was a demo model that had some visible repairs and the store owner wouldn't come off the price enough. In general, I think a used Bach 181 cornet can be one of the best buys out there.
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Last edited by Dale Proctor on Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had one and played it daily for about 5 years back in the late 70s early 80s. Was a fabulous horn, I really wish I still had it.

Unfortunately, the parents decided a younger cousin need it for beginner band after I was off to college. The rest of the story is too painful to recount here again.

They are priced very well today, mostly because the BB crowd seems to think the shape of the wrap is more important than the mouthpiece that's used. To their detriment, and your benefit if you decide to go that way.
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richardwy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
I think a used Bach 181 cornet can be one of the best buys out there.


Indeed!

If I'd found one just a bit lower in price, I would have gone that way instead of my Capri.
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A great old pro in Orlando once told me, 'Everything you can do on a cornet you can do on a trumpet. But you can't do everything on a cornet that you can do on a trumpet'.

Whether you buy the whole of that statement as fact I think one can see where he comes from. How often do you see high note specialists playing a cornet? I've heard one, but it simply isn't common. And while high note range on a cornet isn't easy, sweet low tones on a trumpet are very obtainable. I think that's why the trumpet is a much more popular instrument today. And 'more popular' is accurate; check the resale on a nice trumpet and then check the resale on a nice cornet.

Really, the dollar cost of a cornet might be the single best reason to buy one.
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Bill Dishman
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Bach Long Cornet Reply with quote

We also had a matched set of 10 Bach Long Cornets in high school (along with 2 Bach trumpets)

Chair placement pecking order determined who got which horn.

They were ML 37 bell silver plated cornets.

This was the first "real" cornet I had ever been able to use as family finances prevented me from obtaining a professional model horn up until this time.

I have a large bore long model 37 bell now in my collection. It is a different blow than the ones in high school.

The one "big" problem back in high school was that strange American transition of using cornet shank mps that were really just trumpet cups/rims and not the traditional cornet mps with "V" cups or similar designs.

As I was just a kid, I never knew this until much later.

All I knew was that our band sounded great with these cornets. (My personal opinion is that they were easier to handle and play well by high school kids from top to bottom.) I often wonder what the band would have sounded like if we had used traditional cornet mps.

Bill Dishman
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(Fort Hunt High School
Fairfax County, Virginia 1971-75)
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonathanM wrote:
A great old pro in Orlando once told me, 'Everything you can do on a cornet you can do on a trumpet. But you can't do everything on a cornet that you can do on a trumpet'.

Whether you buy the whole of that statement as fact I think one can see where he comes from. How often do you see high note specialists playing a cornet? I've heard one, but it simply isn't common. And while high note range on a cornet isn't easy, sweet low tones on a trumpet are very obtainable. I think that's why the trumpet is a much more popular instrument today. And 'more popular' is accurate; check the resale on a nice trumpet and then check the resale on a nice cornet.

Really, the dollar cost of a cornet might be the single best reason to buy one.


I think the old pro was limited in what his idea of "everyting" is. I'll disagree with your post for the following reasons...While I agree that high register playing is generally easier on a trumpet, the difference is small when using the same mouthpiece on a cornet. Also, some trumpets (and cornets) are better suited to upper register playing than others. And, while there are exceptions, the folks who produce a beautiful cornet-like tone on trumpet aren't high-note specialists and are using a large cup mouthpiece. For general, all-around playing, I think a proficient player could use either instrument with the appropriate mouthpiece and do well. It's when we get into the more specialized types of playing (screaming trumpet vs. British brass band, for example) that one instrument will win out over the other. Cornets aren't as popular as trumpets, but I see that as a result of the widely held belief that the cornet is a beginner's instrument and when you're ready, you "step up" to a trumpet.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I blame this thread for my latest case of n+1 disorder.

I found a nice early elkhart long bach cornet for sale by a TH member, and after being reminded yet again of how much I used to like my old one from a similar time period.

Should be here in a few days.

Probably not the textbook solution for brass band use, but I'll wager with a good curry mouthpiece in it, it'll sound a lot more like it should than a shepherd's crook horn with a 7c in it. Besides, I normally play flugelhorn in BB anyway.

I have more cornets than trumpets on hand, which is a good thing.
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weezintrumpeteer
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all of the replies. I'm tempted to try one again, but I'm not sure. I wish there was like...a repository for old instruments that you could go to and just play...instead of having to buy and resell if you don't like it

Whenever I purchase an instrument, I always have a hard time selling it whether I love it or not

I'm still looking for opinions on ML vs L bore, bell choice, etc. Also, anyone know how it compares to the other Bach cornet, the 184? Sound, playability, etc?
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ML bore was far and away the most popular, especially in the "long" cornet version. I think some of the BBB players that use Bach 184's favor the larger bore sizes in some cases, but I think even there the ML is still the most common bore size.

Nobody can tell you in writing how either of them play, or how they sound relative to each other in a way that will resonate with you personally. Words simply aren't adequate to describe such things.

Like it or not, you'll have to try them out for yourself, or take your chances with a long distance purchase.

I'm not sure how long of a drive it would be for you from Milwaukee, but if you're really agonizing over this, a trip to the Bach plant should be on your todo list. Get ahold of them in advance of when you want to do it, and tell them you'd like to sample a few of each model.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Randy - congrats on the new cornet! I play a large bore 184, but if I were looking for a 181, I'd probably go with the ML bore 37 too.
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a.kemp
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check the Marketplace later.....there will be a Bach 181 model listed. mL bore, 37 bell. 70's vintage with Malone and Landress tweaks.....great price, too!
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RNJTrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I picked up a 1970 181 from a TH'er about a year ago - needed some bell work, but the compression was excellent. I had the bell stripped, straightened and played it side by side for a few months against my modern cornets. I felt the tone, response, and ease of play was the best of the bunch - I ended up selling all my cornets and kept the Bach.

My main horn is a Bach 37 - also from the 70's - I'll say this, even with the same mouthpiece (minus the shank difference), the 181 still sounds like a cornet. I used it last summer just for the fun of it with my community band - didn't blend too well, but sounded real sweet on solos and Bugler's Holiday with another cornet player in our group.

If you can find an early Elkhart, they are a great cornet usually at a great price.
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weezintrumpeteer
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies. Sounds like these are better horns than I thought. I'll have to see if I can play a few before I decide if I want one again...
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lgt0412
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 1972 Strad "long" cornet. ML with 37bell. Paid $100 for it and it was probably one of the best $100 I've ever spent!!!

Greg

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Mark Bradley
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a New York Bach long model (don't know if they called it the 181 in 1950) with a ML bore and 37 bell. It's in great shape. By coincidence I pulled it out just this weekend and was noodling around on it. My first thought was "Why don't I play this horn more often!?" Bach cornets are really fine instruments and while I don't play this cornet as often as I'd like because everyone else is always playing on trumpet this long model cornet is a good "in betweener" from a "legit" style cornet (i.e. a Jupiter 1220/RL I have) and the trumpet. In other words I think I could get away playing this Bach long model in a trumpet section now and then with no problem. It projects more like a trumpet but also has more mellow cornetish sound. But the one thing that one realizes with this horn that with the added resistance and cornet wrap they just don't soar in the high range (such that it is) and project like a trumpet. Harder to play high notes. So unless you're Warren Vache or Bobby Hackett you're probably better off continuing to use the trumpet as one's main horn but the long model Bach is certainly a nice tool to have in the tackle box.
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kicking an old thread. I bought a mid-70s 181ML on eBay a couple weeks ago and it's quickly becoming my favorite noisemaker. The sound is very nice and with a Bach 3C mouthpiece it blends well with the trumpets in my community band. It also responds well to various other cornet mouthpieces.

Did Bach ever make these with a 72 bell? How would that affect the sound?

Kent
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Tom K.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

check out Jon Faddis playing Bix's Bach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxgaa2qjI5s
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rockford
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
Kicking an old thread. I bought a mid-70s 181ML on eBay a couple weeks ago and it's quickly becoming my favorite noisemaker. The sound is very nice and with a Bach 3C mouthpiece it blends well with the trumpets in my community band. It also responds well to various other cornet mouthpieces.

Did Bach ever make these with a 72 bell? How would that affect the sound?

Kent
You can get one with a 72 bell. I've seen some older horns with the 72 added later too. It's a great cornet bell.
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cornet74
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for me, this topis of 181s is interesting. Someday, I'll probably wind up with an ML/37. But for now I have an Bach 300 which is the ML/37 in a student horn. I like it but its very tight; although, when used with a Curry 5DC or better, a 5VC (both short shank) it opens way up and is easier to play.

But the other horn I have is a Mercedes II from about 1970 (a 60XXX see. #) This horn is all but the "real thing" with two piece vave casings, lots of nickle/silver, and a one piece bell that is, by mute measurement, a 37 and has the Strad. signature.

I know there is a lot of contoversey about the Mercedes II being a "playable" horn. It is for me and I've used it on quiet gigs behind singers or in a duo setting. In the above cases, I used a Wick 3B with good results.

My main cornet is a Yam. 6330IIS which I love, and even more than my Sov. 921 LB 1983, which I "gave" to a friend on long term loan.

Still, I'm going to want the real article someday…I think.

If anyone has any info about those older Mercedes II corents I'd appreciate it. With a mute, it appears the M. II bell is a tad smaller than the 300. But Bach was never known for consistency, even during Bach's days.

I suspect the Artisianal version is just great.

I'm taking a break form practicing and its the M.2 I'm playing as I've had a long 9 week lay off and playing both the Tenor horn a lot and now incorporating the cry. back into the game. I'm sure, soon, the trpt. will make it back on my face again…

Again, any addtional info on the M.2s would be appreciated.

Best,
crt.74
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