• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Derivation of fingerings from harmonics



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mbeardwell
New Member


Joined: 01 Feb 2020
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:01 pm    Post subject: Derivation of fingerings from harmonics Reply with quote

Sorry if this is in the wrong part of the forum, none really seemed related to this topic.

I spent a while developing a table with all of the trumpets fingerings on it here which made me curious. I was taught valve 1 for D and open for E etc. in the second full octave which I found to be slightly flat for all those fingerings. The in-tune fingerings were the ones that repeated the same fingerings from the octave below.

Why was I taught the flat alternative fingerings for the second octave? They appear to be of the same difficulty as they are in the same order and height in the harmonic series.

Also if there are any physicists or engineers or knowledgeable folk, I couldn't work out why the trumpet was unable to play its 1st odd harmonic below the low F# other than as a pedal tone ie. shown as 4-feet trumpet 1st partial shown in this image.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mdarnton
Regular Member


Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Posts: 66
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the answers start coming in I think you will want to read this:
https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 704
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdarnton wrote:
When the answers start coming in I think you will want to read this:
https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html

-----------------------------
Is there any info / research about what variety of temperament (equal, just, etc.) actually OCCURS (whether planned or not) during actual wind band (or orchestra) performance?

And is there any info about what particular instrument or section usually 'guides' the ensemble for tuning and intonation as the performance is in progress - NOT the initial 'tuning' process.

I doubt that many performers strive for tuning that results in equal temperament 3rds - such as a 3rd played on piano, and what is displayed as 'centered' on a typical electronic tuner.

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mdarnton
Regular Member


Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Posts: 66
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt there's a conscious consensus on tuning in large groups but I also suspect the OP's question results from sitting alone in a room with a tuning app and is not about what happens in groups.

Don't you think he has a legit question if you pose it as wondering why players don't pick the note already closest to where they want to bend? But I suspect many players already do consider this. Possibly it is a question that classical and small brass group players would relate to more. I know that string quartet players have plenty of intonation discussions about individual notes, the better the quartet the more discussion.

I have read multiple times that orchestras tend to drift towards equal temperament but I don't know if that is true. If so, it may account for why I don't care for most orchestral music :-)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Worley
New Member


Joined: 27 Jan 2020
Posts: 5
Location: TX

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:32 pm    Post subject: Tuning Reply with quote

Shelly Jagow's Tuning for Wind Instruments is an excellent resource with regards to temperament and frequencies if you want to dig in that deeply. The back has a fill-out tuning guide so that you can track your tuning tendencies on all notes over time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mbeardwell
New Member


Joined: 01 Feb 2020
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was hoping intonation was only concerned with the tuning of each valve combination with the equal temperament system and how well the player can hit this dead on. Then just using the correct fingerings and setting up the trumpets tuning slides correctly would remove the problem.

Often I can't tell the difference between any variations of the same note I or others play and finding out that players fine tune even further depending on the instrument with the two valve sliders and further changing their tuning system to JI and ET depending on the situation makes me struggle to see the purpose of worrying about intonation in the first place.

Its kind of like Van Gogh using a hexadecimal colour-picker and a scientific calculator to ensure his colours are perfect and exact. I haven't looked at the Mona Lisa once before and judged the photorealism of single brush strokes.

In a solo, serious intonation problems are obvious but I am yet to see a great jazz soloist use the 3rd valve tuning slide on the fly. In an orchestra, I am certain without a doubt that no one can hear the difference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mdarnton
Regular Member


Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Posts: 66
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I believe most serious musicians regard equal temperament mainly as a system to stay OUT of tune.

Second, those jazzers who aren't using their slides are still lipping notes around slightly to put themselves into whatever their concept of "in tune" is. They are just sacrificing maximum resonance in doing so. I gather that's more acceptable in jazz than classical, as a rough generality.

If you are looking for fingerings that will save you from ever using your ears, you are playing the wrong instrument, I think.

I haven't ever seen a really good discussion of intonation on a music forum, perhaps because it's something you have to hear, not talk about, but you should know that no note has a frequency that's locked in stone. Tuning, and being in tune, is relational to what's going on with other players and in the music. For instance, in a string quartet that doesn't have a great handle on it, you listen and say "that's fine,", but with a greater quartet it's part of what makes you say "it's great!" In a quartet it's comparable to having a resonant trumpet tone or not.

Relative intonation is one of those things you never hear until you do, and then from there on you can't ignore it. Here is someone who has taken it seriously: https://youtu.be/NHC2XNGerW4

Here is a nice discussion and demo in a more normal context that you would use in jazz: http://blog.feinviolins.com/2013/07/equal-and-just-temperament-they-have.html?m=1

Actually, that last link gives a great explanation of the whole problem!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
zaferis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1766
Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:03 am    Post subject: Re: Derivation of fingerings from harmonics Reply with quote

mbeardwell wrote:
Why was I taught the flat alternative fingerings for the second octave? They appear to be of the same difficulty as they are in the same order and height in the harmonic series.


We teach and use the fingerings that use the shortest amount of tubing-the more natural fingering pattern.. (except for the 7th partial, which is very flat).

Yes, in this case, they are generally a little flat but not so flat that they can't be "lipped" up into tune. The tone produced has an impact in this instance.. Yes a top space "e" with 1st and 2nd valves is naturally slighlty more intune with the lower octave, but the tone is of noticably lesser quality. I think the fingering pattern in that area of the scale would be an added level of awkwardness for the right hand. Going up a chromatic scale from "C".. 0, 12, 13, 23, 12, 1, 2, 0 vs 0, 12, 1, 2, 0, 1, 2, 0.
Once a student progresses beyond just getting the notes out, and more control is gained, then alternate fingerings can be employed if needed. Something I deal with frequently during private lessons.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mbeardwell
New Member


Joined: 01 Feb 2020
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've learnt a lot so far just in this thread and reading all the links provided. I watched a video by Dr. Brian Shook and after hearing a demonstration of the difference I was surprised that the instrument can often be so out of tune with itself on some notes that to not adjust it with the tuning slides would be wrong. He showed the difference between his D4 with and without the tuning slide and I am more convinced of the usefulness of concerning myself with intonation to that level of detail than I was before. I expected a difference before of maybe 10 cents but it seems like often this discussion is more talking about differences up to even half a semitone or more. I am still not entirely sure whether I'll be switching between temperaments as I play in the near future but the on-the-fly tuning slides are something I'll look into.

Thank you zaferis for the reply, I sort of skipped my original question myself going down this rabbit hole of intonation. The less-clunky and resonant
fingering are all consistently only a little flat so I suppose that a small change in embouchure is all that is required.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 704
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mbeardwell wrote:
... I am still not entirely sure whether I'll be switching between temperaments as I play in the near future but the on-the-fly tuning slides are something I'll look into. ...

----------------------------------------------
I suggest FIRST learning to play basic major scales in various keys so that the 'relative intervals' between the steps of each scale sound similar - e.g. keys of C F Eb Db G and A . Use the standard trumpet fingering, and avoid using the valve slides.
You have to do this by careful listening while playing - not with a tuner.
Adjust the main tuning slide so 3rd space C is near center on electronic tuner, and have the valve slide pushed all the way in.

If particular notes of SOME SCALES are always troublesome, then use the valve slides for those situations (chords, etc.). But in other scales those notes without valve slides are probably fine.

There isn't an 'always works' way to adjust the slides - they get adjusted to help be near good pitch, but the player is responsible for making the sound be in tune.

When playing in an ensemble, the goal is for your notes to sound 'good' with the rest of the players. Not for you to be 'in tune' with a tuning system.

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mm55
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1303

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdarnton wrote:
First, I believe most serious musicians regard equal temperament mainly as a system to stay OUT of tune.

I think your sample of "serious musicians" may be very biased. For instance, piano players, as well as keyboard players with electronic instruments, consider equal-temperament to be the definition of "in tune" with regards to intervals. Also guitarists, bassists with fretted instruments, mandolin players, and banjo players. Also orchestra bells, xylophone, marimba, and vibes. Anyone playing bebop or other styles of modern jazz from the last 70 years or so, especially Coltrane-style reharmonization. Anyone who plays any style that doesn't remain in a single major key. Anyone who uses augmented triads, especially in the context of modulation. These, and many others, are likely to consider equal temperament to be the modern standard.

Serious musicians, all.
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'89 Rudy Mück Conductor crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cgaiii
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 360
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:

Is there any info / research about what variety of temperament (equal, just, etc.) actually OCCURS (whether planned or not) during actual wind band (or orchestra) performance?

Jay

There is an interesting section in How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony and Why You Should Care that talks about violinists and how, even when they are told or think they are playing in equal temperament, they actually trend more toward natural harmony or just temperament. Duffin cites some research (can't find the exact reference right now). He also talks about how modern string quartets, particularly when play Mozart, tend toward just intonation where the fifths, fourths and thirds are all pure.
The book is worth a read if you are interested in temperaments, etc.
_________________
Bb: 1995 Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Kanstul 1510-2 (SP) (circa 2000)
Picc: 2001 Kanstul 920 (SP)
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Natural/Baroque Tr: Altenburg (raw brass)
Bass Tr: Mack Brass stencil (Jin Bao) (SP)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
rbeasley
Regular Member


Joined: 07 Oct 2019
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Derivation of fingerings from harmonics Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
Yes, in this case, they are generally a little flat but not so flat that they can't be "lipped" up into tune. The tone produced has an impact in this instance.. Yes a top space "e" with 1st and 2nd valves is naturally slighlty more intune with the lower octave, but the tone is of noticably lesser quality.


I agree that's it's primarily due to tone. The tone becomes less direct and more French horn like, if you will, as you add more valves for higher notes.
_________________
Robert Beasley
robertbeasleymusic.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Beyond16
Regular Member


Joined: 07 Jan 2020
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The tone becomes less direct and more French horn like, if you will, as you add more valves for higher notes.


Here are sample spectrums for the two E5 fingerings:
http://notabs.org/trumpetherald/e5_compare/
They are pretty close. I struggled to get them both in tune.

Here is a trombone example of playing one note using several tube lengths:
https://youtu.be/kfr29jkDoXU?t=264
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group