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Petro oil to synthetic oil change.



 
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rick.willoughby@cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:16 am    Post subject: Petro oil to synthetic oil change. Reply with quote

I have a Bach horn that is almost new. It was oiled with petroleum based valve oil. I want to switch to my favorite synthetic oil. Is there a recommended procedure to make the change? I have heard just simply to start using synthetic could cause the valves to gum up by mixing the 2 oils.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Despite the terminology, the great majority of synthetic oils are petroleum-based.

2. I was advised by a repair tech that Hetman synthetic oils are compatible with non-synthetic petroleum oils. I switched all my instruments from Al Cass Fast oil to Hetman #2 oil several years ago, without any gumming-up or other problems. But a thorough cleaning before using a new oil may be a wise move; that's what I have done for new horns since I converted to Hetman.
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Last edited by mm55 on Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
1. Despite the terminology, the great majority of synthetic oils are petroleum-based.

2. I was advised by a repair tech that Hetman synthetic oils is compatible with non-synthetic petroleum oils. I switched all my instruments from Al Cass Fast oil to Hetman #2 oil several years ago, without any gumming-up or other problems. But a thorough cleaning before using a new oil may be a wise move; that's what I have done for new horns since I converted to Hetman.


Same.

Blue Juice however... will gum up something fierce.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I switched over to Hetman several years ago for some horns (my professional grade horns), I had each horn professionally cleaned before making the switch and specified the oil to the person doing the cleaning. If your horn is reasonably clean, I would think a home cleaning, including careful cleaning of the valves to remove old oil would be sufficient. (I still use Yamaha synthetic on my intermediate Yamaha -- mostly sitting in closet -- because I always have. I use Blue Juice on my Mack Brass bass trumpet as recommended by Mack Brass and on my old Olds Ambassador (just to keep it moving), because the valve tolerances are not so fine.) My understanding is that mixing oils can be problematic so I never do.
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adc
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can mix all you want . Just like syn oil mixes with non syn oils in a vehicle its the same in other areas.

In terms of oils there is Group I to Group V. They all mix with each other. Group IV is PAO oil Group V is other which is mostly esters. Group III and III+ is considered synthetic in the U.S. Group I/II oils are na for valve oils.

If for some mysterious reason you have a problem just wipe the previous stuff off the valve and bore.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adc wrote:
You can mix all you want . Just like syn oil mixes with non syn oils in a vehicle its the same in other areas.

In terms of oils there is Group I to Group V. They all mix with each other. Group IV is PAO oil Group V is other which is mostly esters. Group III and III+ is considered synthetic in the U.S. Group I/II oils are na for valve oils.

If for some mysterious reason you have a problem just wipe the previous stuff off the valve and bore.

Well, oils should mix, but don't always. Hetman seems to be friendly.

Personally, I always clean before switching, but that's me.

Blue Juice doesn't mix with anything. If you're using that, don't mix and expect your valves to function.
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dladore
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure when going from petroleum to synthetic but if going the other way, you should completely clean the valves. Here is what Getzen said when I wrote to them on a similar subject:

"The only caution is that when using a petroleum based oil, DO NOT switch to synthetic without FIRST totally cleaning the valves, casings etc. of the previous oil before switching and visa versa. The two types do not mix and will cause valve action problems if mixed."

Dan in NC
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mdarnton
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, i switched from Getzen oil to Ultra-Pure in my 907.months ago after the monthly bath, no problems. No one doesn't clean their horn regularly, right?

.......Right????
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Aspeyrer
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
adc wrote:
You can mix all you want . Just like syn oil mixes with non syn oils in a vehicle its the same in other areas.

In terms of oils there is Group I to Group V. They all mix with each other. Group IV is PAO oil Group V is other which is mostly esters. Group III and III+ is considered synthetic in the U.S. Group I/II oils are na for valve oils.

If for some mysterious reason you have a problem just wipe the previous stuff off the valve and bore.

Well, oils should mix, but don't always. Hetman seems to be friendly.

Personally, I always clean before switching, but that's me.

Blue Juice doesn't mix with anything. If you're using that, don't mix and expect your valves to function.


I’ve been using a blue juice mixed with another oil for nearly 20 years. Never had a problem with my valves gumming. Used it on Bach, yamaha, cheap Chinese stuff, various rotary trumpets without issue. Fast valves, no discoloration, infrequent oiling required.

I think it has to do with how your saliva reacts with the oil. Not sure exactly, of course. I’ve tried dozens of the other standard oils and nothing works as well as my blue juice mix.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aspeyrer wrote:
I’ve been using a blue juice mixed with another oil for nearly 20 years. Never had a problem with my valves gumming. Used it on Bach, yamaha, cheap Chinese stuff, various rotary trumpets without issue. Fast valves, no discoloration, infrequent oiling required.

I think it has to do with how your saliva reacts with the oil. Not sure exactly, of course. I’ve tried dozens of the other standard oils and nothing works as well as my blue juice mix.

I guess there's an exception to everything.

I've played trumpet for 40+ years, taught band for almost 20 years, and worked in a retail/repair shop as well. I ran across issues with Blue Juice and mixing often and always with a negative result. I definitely had a personal negative result a few times. So, I guess there are exceptions.

Saliva definitely is a factor in how something works for you. Player chemistry + oil + horn = hopefully something works.
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