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JVL
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Location: Nissa, France
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 Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:12 am Post subject: |
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in this video, especially from 2.00.00, Bobby says he tightens part of his abdos muscles (below the navel, the hara point) to play high, and uses the word "tension".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Am03K7QDI
Whatever word you use, and we can talk many hours about the right word to employ science wise, pedagogy wise, i think the point is to avoid crispation.
i really don't see how one can, in the blowing expiration phase for playing trumpet, do it without abdominal activation.
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| SaxoTrump wrote: | ...
So, Greg's philosophy and method are based on discarding as much tension as possible to start re-building trumpet skills from the grounds up. ... |
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It might be Spence's method to discard as much (unnecessary?) tension as possible, but the 'standard method' does acknowledge the need for controlled and balanced tension.
If a person is truly using more tension than is necessary, then of course it would be better to reduce the amount. And that might require relearning embouchure and breath control.
As far as being able to play with no exhalation effort or abdominal muscle contraction. That might be possible for short duration by doing a very full inhale which creates adequate internal air quantity and pressure for playing - the 'full balloon' method. But that relies on the tension of the deep inhale, and the stretching and expanding the torso to contain the air. No obvious effort is needed to allow the 'balloon air' to escape, because the force to expel the air is from the pre-tensioned torso tissue. I doubt that it would be done in actual playing.
Getting back to 'excess tension' - the key is to be aware of how much tension is really needed to accomplish the task. I doubt that any player or teacher knowingly advocates using more tension than is required. The difficulty is learning the techniques (e.g. embouchure formation and usage) that can produce good results with a minimum of tension.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SaxoTrump
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Let me explain how I CAN understand Greg's approach from another point of view using a different musical instrument. I think it will be helpful.
Please - be open minded. It's a perfect example of how great Scott Tenant (both Worldwide known player and instructor) suggests to discard unnecessary finger tension on guitar.
In the Classical (and not only) Guitar World there is a known problem: Using too much finger pressure in fretting the strings. Many guitarist who use too much finger force and are not aware of that cannot develop speed in fast passages and waste their energy and often play at the danger of developing strain injuries (RSI).
The solution? - is obviously to use as little finger pressure as needed. But how to find that minimum required force and make it a habit if one already uses too much finger pressure?
Scott demonstrates it in his method "Pumping Nylon".
What would you think it be?
Yes! - He starts at the point when there is too little, not enough finger pressure on the string when the string will be buzzing against the fret and while plucking the string Scott instructs people to gradually - little by little increase the amount of pressure and find the point where the buzz goes away and that is the absolute minimum amount of pressure needed.
Of course - that's only a starting point and the amount of pressure will need to be correlated with the force of plucking, the position where the string is fretted, etc. etc.
It's just a seed that needs to be planted before a tree can be grown.
What is very important - it's not just finding that amount of finger pressure and suddenly everything falls into place. NO! - It should be made a long term exercise where one needs constantly to be aware of that newly found sensation that needs to be gradually developed into a new habit.
Can you see the point? - Not starting with the excessive amount of pressure and going "down" but on the contrary - starting with too little pressure and going "up".
Can you see why? - It's a human nature to overdo something and make sure there is a "safety margin" to hold something firmly and not allow it to drop rather than relax as much as possible at the risk of dropping that something.
It's perfectly justified in holding a brick in one's hands but in playing guitar it's a totally reverse philosophy. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Greg wrote:
| Quote: | | The 2 things I'll get you to consider is that talking and playing can be identical |
Not at all. Playing a brass instrument effectively is a much more efficient system than vocalizing. That means there is much more sound power output for the air power input than the same for vocalizing. The reason for this is the much higher impedance of the instrument compared to the vocal tract. Especially for trumpet players , where the instrument impedance is very high. |
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SaxoTrump
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Interesting, and it speaks in favor of Greg's position rather than against it?
Majority of trumpet players who can scream up high are not able to sing the same high notes as compared to "selected", mostly opera singers.
In other words - if a trumpet player (having all necessary "physical tools") uses his horn efficiently he will overcome his inability in playing with 'opera singers' power quality' including high range. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| SaxoTrump wrote: | | Robert - I think you are having hard time understanding Greg's philosophy because you are a successful trumpeter who needs no help in correcting or rebuilding your trumpet skills. |
I promise you I'm well acquainted with the chasm of chops dysfunctionality. It took me a very long time to be able to play like I can now, however "successful" that is or isn't. It's definitely a big improvement over the limitations I used to have. I encountered a number of teachers who didn't have a clue how to help me. They knew how to assign standard exercises and gauge whether you sounded decent or not, but when they ran across me and the problems I was having it fell outside their understanding. It also required undoing the misteachings of at least one self-professed "embouchure expert" who I recognize now didn't have a clue what he was talking about, but he was quite verbose about it. He personally could play okay although his concept of trumpet playing and musicality hadn't had an update in many decades.
| Quote: | | Let me try to explain it in simple terms. |
I genuinely and sincerely look forward to seeing a clear demonstration that this methodology and whatever understanding you purport to have manifests itself as an obvious improvement in your playing.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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epoustoufle
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | I encountered a number of teachers who simply didn't have a clue how to help me. They knew how to assign standard exercises and gauge whether you sounded decent or not, but when they ran across me and the problems I was having it simply fell outside their understanding.
I genuinely and sincerely look forward to seeing a clear demonstration that this methodology and whatever understanding you purport to have manifests itself as an obvious improvement in your playing. |
As a player in the same category, I 100% agree with this. The number of time I read on TH "get a good teacher" it makes me roll my eyes. I had "good" teachers. The best in London. Didn't solve any of my problems other than assigning Arban studies and giving phrasing advice. One useful thread on here that constitutes actual, practical advice is from user "billiyb" on here that I can't find - it's a youtube video where he takes an absolute novice from 0 to decent tone in about 15 minutes. After watching that video I went straight to my trumpet and retaught myself after 1 million years of wasted time. |
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Jaw04
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Joined: 31 Dec 2015
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Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| SaxoTrump wrote: | Let me explain how I CAN understand Greg's approach from another point of view using a different musical instrument. I think it will be helpful.
Please - be open minded. It's a perfect example of how great Scott Tenant (both Worldwide known player and instructor) suggests to discard unnecessary finger tension on guitar.
In the Classical (and not only) Guitar World there is a known problem: Using too much finger pressure in fretting the strings. Many guitarist who use too much finger force and are not aware of that cannot develop speed in fast passages and waste their energy and often play at the danger of developing strain injuries (RSI).
The solution? - is obviously to use as little finger pressure as needed. But how to find that minimum required force and make it a habit if one already uses too much finger pressure?
Scott demonstrates it in his method "Pumping Nylon".
What would you think it be?
Yes! - He starts at the point when there is too little, not enough finger pressure on the string when the string will be buzzing against the fret and while plucking the string Scott instructs people to gradually - little by little increase the amount of pressure and find the point where the buzz goes away and that is the absolute minimum amount of pressure needed.
Of course - that's only a starting point and the amount of pressure will need to be correlated with the force of plucking, the position where the string is fretted, etc. etc.
It's just a seed that needs to be planted before a tree can be grown.
What is very important - it's not just finding that amount of finger pressure and suddenly everything falls into place. NO! - It should be made a long term exercise where one needs constantly to be aware of that newly found sensation that needs to be gradually developed into a new habit.
Can you see the point? - Not starting with the excessive amount of pressure and going "down" but on the contrary - starting with too little pressure and going "up".
Can you see why? - It's a human nature to overdo something and make sure there is a "safety margin" to hold something firmly and not allow it to drop rather than relax as much as possible at the risk of dropping that something.
It's perfectly justified in holding a brick in one's hands but in playing guitar it's a totally reverse philosophy. |
If a guitar player cant get a note to ring out because they can't figure out how to put their finger on the fret, press down, and pluck the string, then there is no point in telling them to use as little pressure as possible. You tell them "press your finger down and pluck the string." Right now above the staff you said you can't play those notes. You need to do whatever it takes to play those notes and THEN you can "do less" from there. At least in my opinion. The first time I played high notes I was probably using a lot of mouthpiece pressure and blowing hard. Not ideal, but that's what it took for me to find those notes. I learned to relax on them only after I could play them. |
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JayKosta
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Jaw04 wrote: | | ... You need to do whatever it takes to play those notes and THEN you can "do less" from there. At least in my opinion. The first time I played high notes I was probably using a lot of mouthpiece pressure and blowing hard. Not ideal, but that's what it took for me to find those notes. I learned to relax on them only after I could play them. |
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Yes, that's the way many of us approached playing high notes.
But it's the 'hard way'!
It would be much better if two things happened as part of 'learning to play' -
1) actual instruction (teaching) about the mechanics of embouchure (including tongue and air)..
2) ability to understand and learn how to apply the instructions for actual use.
#1 seems difficult to obtain because the written and spoken explanations seem to be either too technical, imprecise, or unclear.
#2 is infrequent because of #1, and the stereotype images of trumpet players using massive pressure (fake news?) which lead beginners to follow that example.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| epoustoufle wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | I encountered a number of teachers who simply didn't have a clue how to help me. They knew how to assign standard exercises and gauge whether you sounded decent or not, but when they ran across me and the problems I was having it simply fell outside their understanding.
I genuinely and sincerely look forward to seeing a clear demonstration that this methodology and whatever understanding you purport to have manifests itself as an obvious improvement in your playing. |
As a player in the same category, I 100% agree with this. The number of time I read on TH "get a good teacher" it makes me roll my eyes. I had "good" teachers. The best in London. Didn't solve any of my problems other than assigning Arban studies and giving phrasing advice. One useful thread on here that constitutes actual, practical advice is from user "billiyb" on here that I can't find - it's a youtube video where he takes an absolute novice from 0 to decent tone in about 15 minutes. After watching that video I went straight to my trumpet and retaught myself after 1 million years of wasted time. |
salut epoustoufle,
next time we'll receive here Bobby Shew or Andrea Tofanelli, you're welcome 
en attendant, bon confinement ...
best |
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Heim
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Posts: 181
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Greg Spence wrote: |
Saying you need tension in the embouchure instantly creates unnecessary tension in the embouchure.
I don't expect everyone to embrace what I say and do but I can 100% guarantee that those that are having issues and take the time to change their psychology can make great changes needed to get the results that they want.
Cheers,
Greg |
Greg could you point me to one of your videos where you play something other than some low notes? I looked through a few and haven't found anything yet. Cheers to you! |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Heim wrote: | | Greg could you point me to one of your videos where you play something other than some low notes? I looked through a few and haven't found anything yet. Cheers to you! |
Found this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXQvvkAAIOA
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Tpt_Guy
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Location: Sacramento, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | Heim wrote: | | Greg could you point me to one of your videos where you play something other than some low notes? I looked through a few and haven't found anything yet. Cheers to you! |
Found this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXQvvkAAIOA |
I don't see "tensionless" playing in that video.
Any time a muscle contracts, it creates tension. That's how muscles work.
There seems, at least in my experience as a player, to be confusion surrounding tension and effort, and how the two relate.
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-Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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SaxoTrump
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| epoustoufle wrote: |
...
As a player in the same category, I 100% agree with this. The number of time I read on TH "get a good teacher" it makes me roll my eyes. I had "good" teachers. The best in London. Didn't solve any of my problems
...
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For some "good teachers" are help.
For others "good teachers" are not help.
I'm absolutely sure if one approaches trumpet playing with intelligence and some amount of reasonable experimentation... provided they have good playing potential... they will get where they want (at least High C).
I updated my original post with a head note. My top lip won't vibrate with a normal "M"-setting or even a Maggio setting or anything else with the top lip engaged.
As soon as I make it engaged the scar knot behind the teardrop gets firmed up and there is no vibration in the potential aperture location or even to the left or right off center within the reasonable MP displacement.
Once I drop the embouchure shape down and stretch the upper lip down to create a thin vibrating surface at the bottom edge - the tone with its limited range is back.
Please, my friends, understand - I'm not so stupid that I could not get the Low C out after a week of hisses and scratches out of the bell.
I've played it for 10 years in the stretched upper lip and drop jaw setting and every day I got that Low C out.
I've experimented with all kinds of possible "normal shapes" for a week - no tone.
To avoid misinterpretation - I don't mean I go by the shape, it's just semantics. I engaged my top lip as it should be. Be it a simple M-shape or a Maggio lips pursed shape. I made my embouchure straight across, corners firm, etc. and experimented with various degrees of lips tensing up in that position.
I'm not talking about anything weird - trust me.
I spent 10 years, I've done my best, I have nothing to be "proud of" (but I don't live for pride or anything in the way that would make me feel superior to others), and finally I came to realization that I have nothing to regret about - I've studied my intervals, scales, arps., patterns etc. withing my limited range - I trained my ear with all that stuff. Of course - trumpet fingerings are of no use for me from now on but that's of minor concern.
I'l get back to clarinet or sax and will play music instead. That's all I need.
Trumpet became too much an end in itself for me over last few years. It shouldn't! |
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epoustoufle
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Sustained note
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| epoustoufle wrote: | | As a player in the same category, I 100% agree with this. The number of time I read on TH "get a good teacher" it makes me roll my eyes. I had "good" teachers. The best in London. Didn't solve any of my problems other than assigning Arban studies and giving phrasing advice. One useful thread on here that constitutes actual, practical advice is from user "billiyb" on here that I can't find - it's a youtube video where he takes an absolute novice from 0 to decent tone in about 15 minutes. After watching that video I went straight to my trumpet and retaught myself after 1 million years of wasted time. |
I too find this Billy Bergren's video eye opening, simplifying. I happen to believe that it would be very useful to watch for both beginners and those who struggle with playing difficulties. Here is the link to it: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y0uuFa59brVvSCcdo49YT6OeDOSeEq_q/preview?fbclid=IwAR3398ByC5Pw8kyH0DK5V_Cs6gwkxX1e96_lNWP4cLsfSNzwYdmIWQmE7TI
_________________
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Giv'at Shmuel
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Trumpet: Schilke B1 (2005)
Mouthpiece: Schilke Soloiste MG1
(Marc Geujon) gold plated
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Heim
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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double post
Last edited by Heim on Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Heim
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | Heim wrote: | | Greg could you point me to one of your videos where you play something other than some low notes? I looked through a few and haven't found anything yet. Cheers to you! |
Found this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXQvvkAAIOA |
Thanks, now I know the cat can play but he does look and sound like there tension in the throat area. I also don't know how loud he is playing because it is a recording of him playing alone. He does look like he is not over tensing his lip itself.
Greg is doing some other key things consistently that are contributing to his ability to play well. I wonder if he teaches them? |
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Heim
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| epoustoufle wrote: | | As a player in the same category, I 100% agree with this. The number of time I read on TH "get a good teacher" it makes me roll my eyes. I had "good" teachers. The best in London. Didn't solve any of my problems other than assigning Arban studies and giving phrasing advice. |
The answer to that is that they really weren't good teachers. |
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Denny Schreffler
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Heim wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | Heim wrote: | | Greg could you point me to one of your videos where you play something other than some low notes? I looked through a few and haven't found anything yet. Cheers to you! |
Found this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXQvvkAAIOA |
Thanks, now I know the cat can play but he does look and sound like there tension in the throat area. I also don't know how loud he is playing because it is a recording of him playing alone.
He is doing some other key things consistently that are contributing to his ability to play well. I wonder if he teaches them? |
Speaking for myself, not either Greg or Heim ...
Of course there is no such thing as a completely tension-free method, just as there is not a no-pressure system. Greg does not teach that.
Play with as little tension as possible, as high as possible. These will each change (as little tension as possible and as high as possible) as we become more efficient.
The higher we're able to play, the more tension we'll add (one place or more) to the equation if we're also [edited→] maintaining or ] adding volume (↑dB).
Not to deflect from trying to clarify the legitimacy and lucidity of Greg's teaching --- Jason Harrelson talks about mpc pressure ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOM8UcxWRo8
-Denny |
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