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sethmitchell1
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 Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:08 am Post subject: |
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So I am playing on a 3C Bach mouthpiece. It seems to let me play well enough in all ranges, but I tried a Blessing 1 1/2 C and that seemed to make my playing sound just a little bit more full. What would you suggest, a change to a B or A cup, a change to a 1 1/2 rim or stay on 3, or would you do both?
(Also I am not super fluent in all of the rim sizes from Bach, I am going off of the idea that A is smalled all the way through F in alphabetical).
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AJCarter
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | there needs to be a clear identification between sender and receiver to make sure you're both either using the term to mean the same thing or if there's a disconnect. |
to make sure WE aren't having a disconnect, I left the quoted part to be exactly what I meant by my comment
OP: Bach cup sizes are opposite Schilke/yamaha. a Bach "A" cup is the deepest they make. from deepest to shallow it's A, no letter, B, C, D, E, F.
My suggestion would be to stick with the 1-1/2 C and just work on yourself.
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Dark Tone on Trumpet |
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| sethmitchell1 wrote: | | ...Are there any suggestions to get a dark classical tone, compared to my bright jazz tone? |
Trumpeters who play classical, orchestral music don't always sound dark. Depending on the style of a particular piece, they can sound fairly bright.
Jazz trumpeters don't always sound bright. Depending on the style of a particular piece, they can sound rather dark at times, or at least mix it up a bit.
It's difficult to describe sound with words. Maybe your teacher should recommend recordings with trumpet sounds that he would like you to emulate. Or demonstrate a model sound for you in a lesson. If you have a recording device, record his example then your playing and listen to each to understand the difference.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Dark Tone on Trumpet |
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| sethmitchell1 wrote: | | ...Are there any suggestions to get a dark classical tone, compared to my bright jazz tone? |
That term, "jazz tone" just drives me crazy. If jazz is anything, it's freedom; a flexible choice of all parameters of music including a bright and a . . dark sound.
Often I see "Jazz" and "lead" used synonymously. They're not.
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| sethmitchell1 wrote: | So I am playing on a 3C Bach mouthpiece. It seems to let me play well enough in all ranges, but I tried a Blessing 1 1/2 C and that seemed to make my playing sound just a little bit more full. What would you suggest, a change to a B or A cup, a change to a 1 1/2 rim or stay on 3, or would you do both?
(Also I am not super fluent in all of the rim sizes from Bach, I am going off of the idea that A is smalled all the way through F in alphabetical). |
A larger volume in the cup is predicted to result in a bigger, more full and less brilliant sound. You can switch to bigger volume cups in all cup diameters, they all are available in a wide range of cup volumes from extra shallow to extra deep.
My point is that you don't have to switch to a wider diameter cup to get a mouthpiece with more cup volume than your 3C. You can stay with the "3" designation and just play a version with more volume in the cup than the "C" version.
I'm a big proponent of the idea that there is a cup diameter that is the ideal size for you and that once you determine what that diameter is you stick with it throughout all your mouthpieces. That enables you to have a consistent placement on your embouchure and a consistent feel. You don't have to make adjustments because of varying cup diameters.
My list of mouthpieces is very consistent. I've been playing Reeves mouthpieces for over 45 years. Here's my list:
Trumpet: 43D from the Reeves Dynamic Mass series
Cornet: 43B
Flugelhorn: 43FE
You can look them up on the Reeve's website. They're each and all 43/64" cup diameters. Because of that I don't have to adjust anything with my embouchure switching among them.
Ultimately your sound needs to match your own sound concept. There are many great sounds that can come out of a trumpet and they can all be equally pleasing depending on the situation.
Your sound and the sound your private teacher wants you to have may not match up very well. Your personal physiology may not match up with producing the sound your teacher wants you to have. So, it might be impossible for you to produce that sound. If it is impossible then the time you spend trying to do the impossible would have been better spent refining your own sound and making it the best it can be independent of what your teacher ideally wants your sound to be.
Remember what Miles Davis said: "Man, sometimes it takes you a long time to sound like yourself." The earlier you start focusing on sounding like yourself the more time and effort you can put into refining that sound to make it the best it can be.
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Brad361
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| AJCarter wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | “Dark” CAN also be “dull.”
Brad |
Bingo. Language used in teaching trumpet and brass is so spotty because it is made to be "one size fits all" pedagogy that then gets passed down and regurgitated. They say Dark when they really mean they want colorful. But they're getting these dull sounds and then say there isn't enough projection so students play louder, get a crappy, ratty sound and then get yelled because it's offensive.
OP. You ever hear some of our great orchestral players up close? There is nothing "dark" about their sounds. They are ringing, vibrant, colorful, and brilliant so they can project over an orchestra to the back of a hall. |
THIS.
I know this is not what the OP asked, but IMO it’s dead-on correct. I think the “dark, orchestral sound” statement often confuses students, when what the director MIGHT really mean is that they want a sound that isn’t strident or forced, but rather a resonant sound free from distortion.
I once asked a high school trumpet section to tell me what they thought dark and bright tone really meant, inevitably they equated dark to good and bright to bad, because this was how they interpreted what they had been repeatedly told. No one wants to hear a fingernails-on-the-blackboard harsh, unpleasant tone quality, but a trumpet also is not a cornet or a flugel.
Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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oliver king
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:33 am Post subject: |
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There is a lot of good information on this thread. One thing that hasn't been discussed as much, is having a sonic model to follow. Have your teacher provide listening examples of the sound he would like for you to emulate. Try to get that sound into your head. Play along and try to emulate that sound. There is a cycle in playing where you imagine the end result of what you're playing. You adjust what you play against what you hear vs what you imagine; correct and repeat. It takes time, be patient with yourself Listen to other players and make it fun. It's 'playing' music.
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nzhangtrpt
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | nzhangtrpt wrote: | | I know one way to "increase oral cavity" is to lower your tongue position. I am not sure if thats gonna darken your sound. |
Your tongue takes up its space no matter where you locate it in your oral cavity. So it wouldn't seem that moving the tongue within your oral cavity would have any effect on the size of your oral cavity.
I also don't know that players who have naturally larger oral cavities than other players necessarily produce a naturally darker sound than those other players. I don't know that there is any correlation between the size of the oral cavity and the sound produced.
Why would the size of the oral cavity have any effect on the sound? It's not an echo chamber projecting sound into the horn. The sound starts at the buzz point and projects into the horn from that point.
Are there any authoritative studies on this? |
Hi, I casually mentioned oral cavity in a previous comment and got a lot of people talking on it. Jason Harrelson's video and comment shown in one of my previous comments may be authoritative to some.
I think nowadays when referring to oral cavity people not just think the overall space in your mouth but rather your air way in your mouth that's affected by arching of your tongue. |
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Jaw04
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| In my experience, “too dark” means too dull (lacking high frequencies) and “too bright” means too thin, the sound is lacking lower frequencies. Instead of trying to be dark or bright, try to get a full sound where every note rings with frequencies throughout the spectrum. Try to be dark and bright at the same time. Make sure you are playing in the center of each note, meaning you aren’t playing too tight or sharp and cutting off the tone. |
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Ed Kennedy
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| nzhangtrpt wrote: | Why does your teach think your sound is too bright? What is your sound too bright for?
I'd consider a beautifully played Haydn Trumpet Concerto on a 7E mouthpiece to be much more musical than the same but poorly executed concerto on a 1X. |
7E, Dokschizer played a 7E: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvP3xAfiyiM
On a Selmer and then a Benge 3X+. |
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TrumpetMD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | nzhangtrpt wrote: | | Why does your teach think your sound is too bright? What is your sound too bright for?.... |
I would ask the same question. Sometimes students are told so often that they should produce a “dark sound” that they equate “dark” with “good” and “bright” with “bad.” “Dark” CAN also be “dull.”
Brad |
All good points. I would also ask, is this bright vs dark, or shrill vs full?
Good advice about equipment. But I would be careful not to view this as just an equipment issue. I have a darker sound, but I play on a lightweight Bach 43, which many would view as a bright horn. Also, it's no surprise that some of the advice about oral cavity and air is conflicting.
My suggestion to the OP is to listen more. It's hard to change what you can't hear. Get a recorder, maybe just your cell phone, maybe something like a Zoom H1N (which I use). Use it to record and critique your playing, to help work towards the sound you want to create.
Mike
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Yes cup volume can influence tone. Oral volume does not. |
I think Darryl is right about this. Even if he is not, one can't change the shape of the inside of their mouth. But one can change their mouthpiece cup shape and volume. One can also choose a trumpet with a slower bell flair (meaning a bigger, more open bell). The main component of a trumpet that influences tone is the bell flair. Look at the physical differences between a flugelhorn and a trumpet to illustrate this. One can also learn to adjust their tone by adjusting their embouchure.
When I played in the Los Angeles Jazz Workshop next to guys like Wayne Bergeron and John Thomas I needed to brighten my tone to match them and others like them. This I did buy going to a slightly shallower mouthpiece than my 1-1/2C and by rolling my lips in a bit when playing. This brightens the tone. Conversely, letting one's lips pooch out a bit into the mouthpiece will darken the tone.
One needs only listen to past recordings of Arturo Sandoval playing a wide variety of styles and sometimes emulating other famous players of the past, creating wildly varying tones, all on one mouthpiece (a Bach Mt Vernon 3C) and one horn (a Schilke X3) to realize how much an individual player can vary his or her tone.
In summary: If you want a darker tone, play a deeper mouthpiece with a larger backbore, and find a trumpet with a large bell (meaning a slow bell flair) such as a Bach 72, a Schilke X3 or if you want to really go dark, a Wild Thing. And pooch out your lips a bit as you play.
Cheers,
John Mohan
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| sethmitchell1 wrote: | So I am playing on a 3C Bach mouthpiece. It seems to let me play well enough in all ranges, but I tried a Blessing 1 1/2 C and that seemed to make my playing sound just a little bit more full. What would you suggest, a change to a B or A cup, a change to a 1 1/2 rim or stay on 3, or would you do both?
(Also I am not super fluent in all of the rim sizes from Bach, I am going off of the idea that A is smalled all the way through F in alphabetical). |
Get a Bach 3B. Going to a bigger diameter but staying with a C cup depth (in example, a 1-1/2C) will actually usually make you sound brighter, so don't do that. That is not your solution. You just need a deeper cup with the same rim and cup diameter you are used to.
The good thing is, unlike nearly all the other Bach mouthpiece sizes, the Bach 3C, 3B, 3, 3D and even 3E all have nearly identical rims and cup diameters. So switching from a relatively shallow 3C to a deeper 3B is easy and economical, too.
With Bach mouthpieces the number refers to the cup diameter, with 1 being the biggest and larger numbers being smaller. The letter refers to the cup depth, with no letter being the deepest, A being the second deepest and E being the shallowest.
Note that the Bach 3C is the shallowest of the C cup Bach mouthpieces relative to its cup diameter. Most players sound pretty bright on a 3C. Get a 3B.
Cheers,
John Mohan
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Dark Tone on Trumpet |
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Thank you! Best part of my day so far. Probably the best part of my week. |
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Andy Cooper
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:45 am Post subject: |
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"Bright" vs "Brilliant"
Here is what it means to me - a small cymbal - bright. A hammer on an anvil - brilliant.
Mouthpieces - Vizzutti (at least the old Marcinkiewicz ) - bright.
Bach 2 1/2 C - brilliant.
Trumpets: Conn Connstellation - dark, old Conn 22B Victor - brilliant, Conn 8B lightweight - bright.
I believe a trumpet/mouthpiece combination can be both dark and brilliant - to me that's the difference between a trumpet and cornet. Both could be "dark" but you should be able to tell the trumpet from the cornet based on "brilliance".
More directly to the OP's initial comment - the best way to evaluate whether you have an appropriate sound for orchestra would be to hear you play in an orchestra. What sounds good in the practice room does not necessarily sound good in an ensemble. |
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mwlangford
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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I have found that one simple approach is to immerse yourself into the type of sound you are searching for by listening to those types of sound. recordings work, but in person is even better. Listen at least twice as much as you play.
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Andy Cooper wrote: | "Bright" vs "Brilliant"
Here is what it means to me - a small cymbal - bright. A hammer on an anvil - brilliant.
Mouthpieces - Vizzutti (at least the old Marcinkiewicz ) - bright.
Bach 2 1/2 C - brilliant.
Trumpets: Conn Connstellation - dark, old Conn 22B Victor - brilliant, Conn 8B lightweight - bright.
I believe a trumpet/mouthpiece combination can be both dark and brilliant - to me that's the difference between a trumpet and cornet. Both could be "dark" but you should be able to tell the trumpet from the cornet based on "brilliance".
More directly to the OP's initial comment - the best way to evaluate whether you have an appropriate sound for orchestra would be to hear you play in an orchestra. What sounds good in the practice room does not necessarily sound good in an ensemble. |
Thank you for this, Andy. I've always felt we need to expand our general sound concepts for trumpet. I have for years now looked for ways to "brighten" my sound, when really what I was looking for was "brilliance", by the way you've described it.
For me a Bach 43 is bright, and the 37 is brilliant.
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chuck in ny
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| mwlangford wrote: | | I have found that one simple approach is to immerse yourself into the type of sound you are searching for by listening to those types of sound. recordings work, but in person is even better. Listen at least twice as much as you play. |
that is one reliable way to drill a sound concept into your brain. still much of what the OP says bothers me. who is to say that your tone is too bright? some players only play this way. that is the way they relate to the instrument. i have a dark chet baker style sound concept that is applicable to a small segment of players. right or wrong are poor descriptions of someone's personal proclivities. now if the teacher says your sound sucks, you need more sensitivity, overtones, fullness, that's another thing, but that should be along with concrete methods for improvement. it sounds like the teacher is an idiot and if so he has a lot of company. |
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cgaiii
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think "dark" is so vague and meaningless, frequently defined differently by different people as to be a pretty useless term. Face it, the trumpet is a bright instrument. What we call dark would make an oboe or clarinet player laugh.
I would ask your teacher to define what he or she means, demonstrate, etc. To me this kind of vague criticism of your playing is not really helpful at all if the teacher cannot define it and help you move toward it. It just throws you off balance. Do not just accept this vagueness from your teacher and worry about it.
Record yourself. Do you like the sound? Is it the sound you want to hear from a trumpet. If not, find examples of the sound you want and ask your teacher what you can do to get there.
First and foremost you need a concept of what you want to sound like. Then you need to play with your sound and your playing until you get there. Learn what that sound sounds like to your ear when you are playing. There may be some hardware that helps this, as some have suggested. Your teacher may be able to tell you some physical things to do (as some have suggested above). This is not an instantaneous process; you have to work toward it.
It is some of the most fun you can have playing a trumpet.
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Andy Del
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Dark Tone on Trumpet |
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| sethmitchell1 wrote: | I have been playing trumpet for about seven years now. I have got a private teacher, and one of the things he always tells is that my tone is too bright. I have tried to hard to make a darker more classical tone, but whatever I do seems to get me there only for a short period of time and only in the middle register, not high nor low.
Are there any suggestions to get a dark classical tone, compared to my bright jazz tone? |
Well, there is a lot of responses about how to do this or that. Catch is, WHAT are you doing, and WHAT does your teacher recommend?
you also gave a clue to everyone but I think it was missed - you can get the desired change, in the middle register for a period of time. Translate that to you can get the sound you are after in your comfort zone while you are fresh and focused.
Now you have your answer, unless your teacher is getting in the way of this quest. (If THAT'S the case, get a new one) You will need to keep on striving to attain your goal. Very simple, very easy to do, if you are determined and willing to put in the time.
In case you doubt it, think about what is said if someone say they want to play higher and have been working on it, but are stuck on X pitch. The remedy is to keep plugging away, always checking your production and making sure you are going about things in the correct manner. You WILL grow into the high notes. Or into developing a darker sound.
cheers
Andy
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