Dark Tone on Trumpet

[Bflatman]

It appears to be a common belief that the oral cavity plays no part in tone generation and only the tones from lip vibration forward plays any part in the tone that emerges from the bell.

I am unconvinced

Empirical testing by players attest to the oral cavity being a contributor.

The fact that tones are present in the oral cavity during playing the mechanism is clearly demonstrated by the sucking method of playing an instrument whereby the air is not blown through the instrument but is sucked from the instrument and tones still emerge from the bell.

Effectively during sucking playing the mouthpiece takes the role of the oral cavity and it is likely that the size of the mouthpiece cup would affect the tone present in that cavity.

This is the quote of what is happening when playing a trumpet by sucking the air from it. It is called a sucked trumpet.

Extract

Trumpet-like instrument played by sucking rather than blowing air through the player’s lips to cause them to vibrate. The instruments vary from animal horns and conical coiled tubes of bark to long wooden tubes, some cylindrical, others expanding similarly to alphorns. The sound is generally quiet, and the pitches are those of the overtone series. Sucked trumpets have been used from Manchuria and Siberia to South America as animal calls and in shamanic rituals; musical performances have also been reported. The term ...

This is the link
https://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/grovemusic/view/10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.001.0001/omo-9781561592630-e-3000000109

I think it is quite reasonable to assume that while playing normally and blowing normally the lips create tones within the oral cavity which are then propagated in the mouthpiece and augment the tones created in the mouthpiece by lip vibration.

This would indeed lead to the ability to richen and darken tones by altering the oral cavity size.

It must be true that tones exist in the oral cavity how else could a sucked trumpet function other than by this means.

The question now is how much does this oral cavity tone affect the instrument tone and there is a wealth of evidence from players who manage to do this, that it does.

[kalijah]

Air flow direction is not the same as sound propogation in the case of negative pressure source. The pressure pulses are simply negative and the net flow is into the body.

The oral space contributions for trumpet playing are negligible because of the high impedance differences. Flow direction is irrelevant.

[JayKosta]

[kehaulani]

[harryjamesworstnightmare]

I never thought I would need a calculator to play the trumpet. Put the slide rule down and step away from the trumpet...
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Brian James
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Getzen Proteus
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Conn 80A
Getzen Eterna Flugelhorn

[kehaulani]

[kalijah]

[kehaulani]

[harryjamesworstnightmare]

[kalijah]

Sound is a periodic variation in air pressure. Reversing the source pressure to be below ambient air pressure does not prevent the variation in pressure from propogating as sound.

When you have a sealed bottle with a negative, or positive. air pressure inside, and you instantly open the top ( pop the cork, so to speak) the pressure change into the bottle will resonate and the sound will propogate into the atmosphere. It doesn't matter if the air inside is above or below the ambient air pressure in its initial state.

So playing a trumpet from negative air pressure is completely possible ( of course not practical).

What you have are pulses of NEGATIVE air pressure into the mouthpiece cup, and each " pulse" will have a negative flow into the mp, or, therefore a "positive" air flow into the oral space.

Just as swapping the spesker conductors reverses the current flow into the speaker coil and reverses the speaker action. But there is still sound power OUT.

[kalijah]

[theslawdawg]

Wow.
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My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs

[Vin DiBona]

If you can't hear the sound you want, you will never achieve it.
Go practice until you have the skill to produce it and hear it. Equipment does have some bearing on your sound, but constant over analysis does nothing to get where you want to be.
There is so much pontificating here, what is someone to believe?
R. Tomasek

[harryjamesworstnightmare]

[harryjamesworstnightmare]

[kalijah]

[lipshurt]

Doesn’t the oral resonance acoustic space go all the way to the bottom of the lungs? I don’t get why you are saying the oral space is so small
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Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
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[OldSchoolEuph]

To anyone determined (or masochistic) enough to still be reading this thread looking for wisdom: STOP.

Go study with teachers, who by the success of their students, and perhaps their designs, have shown they know what's what. Learn the truth for youself, by doing, and experimenting, and exploring, and discovering with the help of as many real experts as you are lucky enough to gain access to in person, sharing in your success or otherwise.

Talk is cheap, knowledge isn't.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[theslawdawg]

[kehaulani]