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Multiple Tonguing: too much of a change in technique



 
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Multiple Tonguing: too much of a change in technique Reply with quote

I can multiple tongue cleanly and quickly, but it feels like it puts my mouth in a position that is not how I normally play the trumpet. I cannot double or triple tongue accurately in the upper register ( things get shaky around B flat above the staff and exponentially fall apart the higher I go). My embouchure strains a lot more when I'm double tonguing above the staff than when I'm single tonguing.

After practicing multiple tonguing for a while and getting it clean, I end up with a different set up. I won't go into details about tongue, jaw, or lip position because we are talking online and I don't think the details here will be valuable info. I'll just say that it is a "different" way of playing than how I normally play, and it takes me a while to get back into my normal mouth position. Similarly, when I play with my normal mouth position, I can't multiple tongue very well.

Has anyone else conquered multiple tonguing and have any good advice?
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For anyone to make any meaningful suggestions, it may be beneficial to know how you approach practicing it.

Are there any specific exercises you use? Do you practice multiple tonguing on the same pitch for extended periods?

Answers to questions such as these may help to figure out what might be happening and how to approach multiple tonguing from another angle that doesn't produce the effects you've described.
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kgsmith1
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out Vince DiMartino, starting around 21:00 if you want to skip to the section on articulation. Some of it will probably be old news to you ("Arban was French, he pronounced the syllables differently") and some of it was really helpful to me (the k/g syllables are formed just behind the the front of the tongue, so that the middle of the tongue can do what it does for flexibility).

https://youtu.be/aRPTiTYc-FI
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt guy: I usually listen to recordings esp. Sergei Nakariakov and play along or pause and use the recordings as my sound model. I work on the multiple tonguing sections on pieces like Carnival of Venice, Zigeunerweisen, Bohme concerto, Concert Etude, Arutunian, etc. I used to do the Arbans exercise and practice multiple tonguing on one pitch but now focus mainly on repertoire.

KGsmith1: thanks for the suggestion, I'll check it out.

EDIT: Checked out the DiMartino video, he mentions he couldn't double tongue above the staff for years (sounds like me)... I'm trying to follow what he is explaining after that. The placement of the K... not sure I'm getting it but will experiment. I feel the K in the back of my throat, not sure how it could be on the roof of the mouth like he says?
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not able to assess your problem since we aren't together and even then it might be difficult, but as a general rule for what you describe I'd suggest moving your tongue at rest and at play a bit higher and forward. Just sitting with out the instrument, if you form an embouchure and whisper-sing/whistle whooo-wheee you'll see the movement I'm suggesting and you will likely feel your it affect the position of your bottom lip and even jaw slightly. Try incorporating that into your initial set up, in the "whooo" position. As you ascend the vowel formed inside your mouth will likely change from "oo" to "ee". For a better demonstration of this, whistle from, say, 3rd space C to G at the top of the staff and observe what your tongue is doing to facilitate this. (If you "can't" whistle, the placement of your tongue is likely the primary reason.)

Another suggestion (that may or may not be pertinent to your issues) is the flow of wind. I have my students play the triplets as a line of single, legato quarter notes first, then repeating as the written triplets, striving to maintain the same air flow. It will take time and it would be so much easier for someone sitting next to you to demonstrate.

Be certain that your tongue is not making, or trying to make any sound as you play and that it is merely acting as a valve to regulate the start of each note. This is essential whether playing using mutliple-tongue techniques or single long tones.

Finally, if you can find some sort of reputabe teacher within driving distance that would be superior to anything I can offer here. Good luck.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Swartz wrote:
I'm not able to assess your problem since we aren't together and even then it might be difficult, but as a general rule for what you describe I'd suggest moving your tongue at rest and at play a bit higher and forward. Just sitting with out the instrument, if you form an embouchure and whisper-sing/whistle whooo-wheee you'll see the movement I'm suggesting and you will likely feel your it affect the position of your bottom lip and even jaw slightly. Try incorporating that into your initial set up, in the "whooo" position. As you ascend the vowel formed inside your mouth will likely change from "oo" to "ee". For a better demonstration of this, whistle from, say, 3rd space C to G at the top of the staff and observe what your tongue is doing to facilitate this. (If you "can't" whistle, the placement of your tongue is likely the primary reason.)

Another suggestion (that may or may not be pertinent to your issues) is the flow of wind. I have my students play the triplets as a line of single, legato quarter notes first, then repeating as the written triplets, striving to maintain the same air flow. It will take time and it would be so much easier for someone sitting next to you to demonstrate.

Be certain that your tongue is not making, or trying to make any sound as you play and that it is merely acting as a valve to regulate the start of each note. This is essential whether playing using mutliple-tongue techniques or single long tones.

Finally, if you can find some sort of reputabe teacher within driving distance that would be superior to anything I can offer here. Good luck.

Thanks for your input. I think I need to find a large room and record myself. I am trying to get more definition in my multiple articulation especially above the staff.
I do think I need to go back to basics a bit. Do some multiple tonguing on repeated notes throughout my range or the exercise you suggested.
When I listen to great recordings of trumpet solos with all kinds of double tonguing, they get more crisp separation throughout their whole range. When I double tongue on a high B, it sounds like pulsing air, legato, and not really crisp like it should be. My goal is to make the notes have a click. I noticed you wrote make sure your tongue is not making a sound, but I feel that I DO need to make a separation to get that crisp staccato sound that I hear from the masters.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig beat me to it!

I was going to suggest using a forward tongue arch. Practicing "oo" and "ee" as Craig describes will demonstrate the tongue arch. Practicing "tee-kee-tee-kee" and "tee-tee-kee tee-tee-kee" (or whatever triple tonguing pattern you use) off the horn will demonstrate the articulation.

There are many professional players and teachers in the Bay Area. Seeking in-person advice from one of them is your surest bet.

Meanwhile, here is a good article on different types of triple tonguing:

http://www.bbtrumpet.com/triple-tonguing/

I hope this may be of some benefit.
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ayryq
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a few exercises in "Flexus" (Laurie Frink & John McNeil) for working on this (with single tonguing, but you could multiple-tongue too). Basically it consists of playing something (they're mostly flexibility stuff, some scales) first slurred a few times, and then without stopping, playing the same thing tongued, then back to slurred, etc.
The introductory text to this section (p. 54) notes that many players have two approaches to playing, and that "trumpet players usually play more efficiently when slurring." "The exercises in this section are designed to develop a unified approach by juxtaposing slurring and tonguing."

If you don't have Flexus you could try something similar from Clarke. For example, on the first study, play a line slurred, then on the repeat play it tongued, then slurred, then tongued, then play two bars slurred and two bars tongued. Third study would be good too, playing alternate bars slurred and tongued, trying to keep the feel the same and without resetting.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
Craig Swartz wrote:
I'm not able to assess your problem since we aren't together and even then it might be difficult, but as a general rule for what you describe I'd suggest moving your tongue at rest and at play a bit higher and forward. Just sitting with out the instrument, if you form an embouchure and whisper-sing/whistle whooo-wheee you'll see the movement I'm suggesting and you will likely feel your it affect the position of your bottom lip and even jaw slightly. Try incorporating that into your initial set up, in the "whooo" position. As you ascend the vowel formed inside your mouth will likely change from "oo" to "ee". For a better demonstration of this, whistle from, say, 3rd space C to G at the top of the staff and observe what your tongue is doing to facilitate this. (If you "can't" whistle, the placement of your tongue is likely the primary reason.)

Another suggestion (that may or may not be pertinent to your issues) is the flow of wind. I have my students play the triplets as a line of single, legato quarter notes first, then repeating as the written triplets, striving to maintain the same air flow. It will take time and it would be so much easier for someone sitting next to you to demonstrate.

Be certain that your tongue is not making, or trying to make any sound as you play and that it is merely acting as a valve to regulate the start of each note. This is essential whether playing using mutliple-tongue techniques or single long tones.

Finally, if you can find some sort of reputabe teacher within driving distance that would be superior to anything I can offer here. Good luck.

Thanks for your input. I think I need to find a large room and record myself. I am trying to get more definition in my multiple articulation especially above the staff.
I do think I need to go back to basics a bit. Do some multiple tonguing on repeated notes throughout my range or the exercise you suggested.
When I listen to great recordings of trumpet solos with all kinds of double tonguing, they get more crisp separation throughout their whole range. When I double tongue on a high B, it sounds like pulsing air, legato, and not really crisp like it should be. My goal is to make the notes have a click. I noticed you wrote make sure your tongue is not making a sound, but I feel that I DO need to make a separation to get that crisp staccato sound that I hear from the masters.
So, it appears trying to get some lessons is out??? Pity.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello jaw
when years ago while practicing double & triple tonguing Clarke in the upper reg i suddenly one day adopted a ktm or dorsal tonguing (tip of the tongue not tonguing between the lips like i used to, but in contact with the bottom teeth), things became easier, cleaner, more accurate. Took me weeks and couple months to really master this technic.
best
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People suggesting lessons- I understand the importance of lessons. Maybe I should take some lessons. I myself play and teach professionally.

I just wanted to check here to see if anyone had similar problems with multiple tonguing in the upper register to get some perspectives on how to approach it. Not to replace a lesson, but as another way of approaching it. I've had success with lessons and also had success with experimenting and asking questions from others. I have enough experience to figure playing problems out on my own without a private lesson, in many cases. This particular topic is just something I've recently decided to focus on in my practice, since I'm not much of a classical player and want to be able to play more challenging solo repertoire that involves a complete command of double tonguing.

Thank you all for your feedback.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UPDATE:

Kind of figured out the technique, where my K sound is more forward and the air flow is not interrupted in the upper register. Has to do with what JVL mentioned about the tip of the tongue. Double tonguing still requires more tension in the corners of my embouchure than I'm used to playing with, in order to keep things stable, but I'm able to double tongue pretty easily around B to high D much better than before.
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