• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Big band lead playing


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BBB1976
Veteran Member


Joined: 30 May 2016
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:58 am    Post subject: Big band lead playing Reply with quote

Hi folks

What do you guys practice for big band lead playing, in preparation for it?

Best
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you asking about how to get into shape to become a 'lead player'.
Or what to do as a currently competent 'lead player' to stay in shape.

And what do you expect are the challenges for the lead parts you might encounter.
range / endurance / power / style / etc.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaw04
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 898
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 octave scales, playing high efficiently, playing high soft, playing high loud. Lots of great exercises in the book "Build Your Range' by Augie Haas to get you going up there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bach_again
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 2478
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excuse the direct nature of this message, long day.

If you are asking, I am guessing this is the first time you have been asked to play lead? There's no good paying lead gigs here, so I can't speak from much experience. I have done a good few, and I do recording sessions of this nature time to time. (I'll link something below I tracked horns for) I do a lot of function band playing, that's my bread and butter. It's not the same, but the rep should be approached with the same reverence. It rarely is, mind.

Learn the rep, memorise if practical.
Work on reading.
It isn't about range, it is about style and sound.
You are the lead voice of the ensemble, you colour the entire band. Think Star Wars - what's in your head? Yeah. Maurice Murphy just nailing a top C with the most perfect sound. You aren't thinking "nice Vln II". Big band playing is that. The sound imprint, style imprint. The energy and vibe. That's far from saying FF top C vibes all the time... not at all; I am saying you lead the band. You. Your sound, time, tuning and style.
Sound, time, tuning and style.
Play along with every recording of each piece you can find. Make notes on what you like and don't. Whose sound, whose time feel? What sections are on top of the beat and which behind? Is the swing dotted or triplet etc...?
Take lessons with a lead player.
This is not high notes or technique, Lead Trumpet is music. Trumpet is technique etc... but never confuse... Goz only ever recorded up to an A, most often above high G he had someone else bump it. He played time, style, sound, feel, music. He was obsessed with making the music FEEL good.

Bobby shew has great info (https://www.bobbyshew.com/main.html?pgid=7&art_artcl_id=11) - quoted below in full, in the event his site goes down.

Quote:
Playing Lead Trumpet in the Big Band Setting
Lead vt: To direct the cause of, by going before or along with; to mark the way for; to be a way or means of bringing something to a particular condition or result.



A lead trumpet player has a number of responsibilities. The job consists of the following:


a) Interpret the music in the correct style.
b) Communicate effectively with other members of the section and the band.
c) Consistently interpret phrasing and style.
d) Have the strength to generate excitement through power when needed, and sensitivity
enough to play gently when necessary.
e) Be a good jazz soloist with a natural feel for various jazz styles.
f) Assign the music to ensure that parts are well matched, and evenly distributed so that
the job is fun for all members of the section.


There are many misconceptions regarding what is required to become a good lead trumpet player. The most prominent is that good high chops are the sole determining factor, or at least the most important one. It is true that maintaining a good high register, at least up to a consistent concert F above high C, is quite important. However, chops alone will never determine whether or not a person will be in demand by road and studio bands.



The single most important characteristic of a good lead player is feeling. The lead player who can play the notes with good control and still emit a loose, relaxed, and swinging feeling with high energy when called for will help the band swing as a group. A good drummer and a good lead player are essential elements in the make-up of a good band. When these two players can swing and work together, the entire band will swing, as they will be able to carry lesser players along until they learn to listen and swing as well. Jazz soloists who have some chops will make better lead players by knowing the importance of feeling the music in good time and developing melodic lines, and understanding chord structures as the chart progresses.



Aspiring lead players can also benefit from learning to play drums. Naturally, they do not need a full course on drumming. Start with a ride cymbal alone, then add hi-hat, left hand (stick to snare, toms), and finally add the bass drum. It isn't as easy as it appears and will definitely help you appreciate good drummers. This helped me years ago, and I still find an occasional moment to sit down at the drums for enjoyment and learning. Each drummer has his or her own personality and style, and you must learn to listen very closely so you can play with the same feeling that they establish. If you don't, you'll find yourself fighting the beat, and this will eventually wear down your chops.



When I am playing lead in a big band, I listen to the drums. My attention is on the ride cymbal, and then I listen for the hi-hat, which offsets the ride cymbal feeling. If a drummer is free with time, as in the style of Tony Williams or Elvin Jones, I have to listen for the overall melodic lines that he is creating. In this style, there is often a loose, broken, less obvious beat in the ride cymbal and the hi-hat. Good big band drummers more in the swing vein such as Mel Lewis, Buddy Rich, Louie Bellson, and Jake Hanna play very melodically as well as rhythmically. Their playing is not difficult to decipher as far as the ability to hear the basic elements of time such as ride cymbal and hi-hat. It is important to listen, both melodically and rhythmically to the drummer.



Memorize charts so that you can close your eyes and play the lines as if they were solos. Glance down at phrases for reference and memorize a short section at first, then look back at the page for the next section. Play the charts often enough to know what lies ahead of you. If you listen to the line that the drummer plays instead of just tapping your foot, you'll find it a lot easier to make the entrance at the end of the break. (Buddy Rich used to change the tempo of the tune during a drum break of two to four bars just to see if the guys in the band were listening to him. Once I had been caught a couple of times, I learned how to listen to the drummer!)



When you are playing a melodic ensemble passage, play the line like a jazz solo that has been orchestrated. This will swing more than if you merely play all of the right notes somewhere close to the time. Some of my favorite lead players over the years were Sam Noto, Benny Bailey, Snooky Young, Chuck Findley, Buddy Childers, and Maynard Ferguson, because they are all excellent jazz players, and all give off a good feeling when they play lead parts.



If you're not a good soloist, you should sit down and address this area to be a better lead player and enhance your musical experience. There are many approaches to improvisation. The best and simplest that I recommend is Vol. 3: II-V7-I (working on chord spellings) of the Jamey Aebersold series. I also recommend the Aebersold volumes on "Jazz Standards" to learn the tunes everyone should know. There are many other Aebersold volumes available for all levels of ability. They help you assimilate the actual playing experience when it's not possible to sit in with a live group. In addition, I suggest that you play along and listen to a variety of jazz recordings, including some older Miles Davis, Clifford Brown, Charlie Parker, and others.



As far as tying this in with lead playing, you should spend a considerable amount of time listening to recordings and live big bands. In doing so, focus your attention on the lead player and the drummer, and lis-ten to how closely they are playing together. Are they both playing the same time (listen to the ride cymbal)? Is the lead player loose and relaxed or are the eighth notes stiff and choppy? Is the lead player overly care-ful, or does he swing and generate excitement? This type of dedicated listening will increase your aware-ness of jazz styles, and will determine your eventual success as a lead player.



One final area to develop is the ability to know how to pace yourself. The lead player is very much a guide for the section and shouldn't play unison lines (they should be marked optional), and sustained lines in the lower register. In most cases, the rest of the section can cover such lines so the lead player can rest. This allows his energy to be conserved for those sections of the arrangement where he is most needed. It doesn't always help to trade notes (inverting the chord voicing or exchanging notes with another in the section), because this can cause the embouchure to spread, making it even more difficult for the lead player to get back up into the upper register.

I hope that these thoughts will help developing trumpet players better fulfill the many challenges which come with playing lead in a big band. My best to you as you learn and grow!



About the author: Bobby Shew is known as one of the greatest lead and jazz trumpet players in the business today. Shew has performed with the big bands of Tommy Dorsey, Woody Herman, Buddy Rich, Toshiko Akiyoshi, and Louie Bellson. He has done combo work with Horace Silver, Art Pepper, and Bud Shank. He has also sustained a jazz and studio career in Los Angeles. Currently he spends a great deal of time on the road as a soloist, teacher, and clinician. He is a Yamaha artist/clinician.



Link

_________________
Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk

Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals

The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
gwood66
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 301
Location: South of Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qualifying information:

I am a 53 year old comeback player who has been playing for a little over 4 years. I never played past the high school level. I have been playing lead parts in a community college jazz ensemble for a little over a year. I am not a great player, but I have improved each semester.

What I do and have found useful:

I still practice part of the basic routine that John Mohan developed for me when I started out. I try to get through at least two of the 4 each day.

1. Systematic Approach Lesson 2 Part 1/Part 2. I believe the false pedals between low F# and pedal C really help coordinate and strengthen the embouchure. You could probably do lip bends in the staff as well, however I think its important to carry the feeling of playing a F below low F# throughout the entire register.
2. Lips Slurs. Pick your book. I currently still play out of Irons.
3. Tonguing exercises. Pick a scale and tongue even 16th notes up and down the scale.
4. Clarke Technical Studies. I believe Clarke 1 and 5 are the most useful exercises for building range and consistency. Use the models described in the book to improve your double tonguing.

In addition, I practice playing different music above the staff so my high notes are musical and do not sound like someone butchering hogs. You can find transcribed Maynard solos (Rocky, Maria, etc.) on YouTube to use as play-alongs. I also go back and read old lead parts I have along with YouTube recordings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYyqkH07UKo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7FEYtdLAiw

Here is a routine I have recently picked up that has some similarities to what I am currently doing. 5 Steps to Mastering Lead Trumpet. The video has some priceless advice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Kmtr3Usic

I would also recommend reading this article.

https://www.dansr.com/wick/resources/playing-lead-trumpet-in-a-big-band-section

This book has come in handy as well:

https://qpress.ca/product/the-first-trumpeter/

I look forward to feedback on suggestions in this post from the seasoned veteran lead players. Hope this helps you in some way and as with every trumpet herald post YMMV.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gwood66
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 301
Location: South of Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was typing my reply when bach_again posted. So you get the Bobby Shew advice twice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a local kicks band the question is: WWSD? What would Snooky do?

Not the greatest audio but you'll get the idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL78WhqILZQ&list=PL584FE2AEB862A577&index=22
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vin DiBona
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1473
Location: OHare area

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need range, style, sound, chops, and above all, rhythm. If you can't keep time, you won't be a good lead player no matter how good everything else is.
This can all be had by practicing the right things and working with a metronome.
On YouTube look up Roger Ingram, Wayne Bergeron, Conrad Gozzo, Bernie Glow, Uan Rasey, Rick Baptist, Snooky and others.
All a bit different, but all fabulous.
By the way, Roger and Wayne have been friends since they were teenagers.
R. Tomasek
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
You need range, style, sound, chops, and above all, rhythm. If you can't keep time, you won't be a good lead player no matter how good everything else is.
This can all be had by practicing the right things and working with a metronome.
On YouTube look up Roger Ingram, Wayne Bergeron, Conrad Gozzo, Bernie Glow, Uan Rasey, Rick Baptist, Snooky and others.
All a bit different, but all fabulous.
By the way, Roger and Wayne have been friends since they were teenagers.
R. Tomasek


I don't know if you were around Chicago back then, But John Howell was the bomb! (He was actually a B17 pilot in WWII) He was playing a Bach 25L and a 1C, I asked him how he cut through a band with all that. He said: "Eddy, I don't cut through the band, I COVER the band!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8965
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You need range, style, sound, chops, and above all, rhythm."
And accuracy.

BTW, although it's good for the ego, and a lead player definitively needs to ooze confidence, being a good lead player is not about who's more macho than the next guy.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
adagiotrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 901

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
You need range, style, sound, chops, and above all, rhythm. If you can't keep time, you won't be a good lead player no matter how good everything else is.
This can all be had by practicing the right things and working with a metronome.
On YouTube look up Roger Ingram, Wayne Bergeron, Conrad Gozzo, Bernie Glow, Uan Rasey, Rick Baptist, Snooky and others.
All a bit different, but all fabulous.
By the way, Roger and Wayne have been friends since they were teenagers.
R. Tomasek


I would also include John Audino. That Tonight Show band set the standard with Doc up front and John in the back. Five days a week plus recordings. What a gig.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vin DiBona
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1473
Location: OHare area

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed, A dear friend sat in the section with Johnny Howell for years at Mill Run. I'm sure you know him. His initials are J.C. and the Schilke 15B is a copy of his old Mt. Vernon 3C.
He has some great stories about Johnny.
R. Tomasek
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8965
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
I would also include John Audino. That Tonight Show band set the standard with Doc up front and John in the back.

I thought Snooky Young played split lead.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
adagiotrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 901

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
adagiotrumpet wrote:
I would also include John Audino. That Tonight Show band set the standard with Doc up front and John in the back.

I thought Snooky Young played split lead.


I don't think so. The band already had two lead players, Doc and John Audino. that's not to say that Snooky didn't play lead from time to time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8965
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Turkle
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 2450
Location: New York City

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Big band lead playing Reply with quote

BBB1976 wrote:
Hi folks

What do you guys practice for big band lead playing, in preparation for it?

Best


I haven't played big band lead since college. So it's been a while.

But when I get the urge to pretend like I'm a lead player, I pull out the "Big Band Classics" book by Tony Scodwell. It's a steal at under $15 from Amazon, are you kidding me?? Comes with a CD of the rest of the band. It's a ton of fun. Bring your big boy britches, there are a few long loud high notes in there!

https://www.amazon.com/Band-Classics-Featuring-Tony-Scodwell/dp/1423441311

If you can play through that whole book with musical feeling and great chops, then you are ready to play lead trumpet with any big band that might give you a call.

Good luck!
_________________
Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dershem
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1885
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
adagiotrumpet wrote:
I would also include John Audino. That Tonight Show band set the standard with Doc up front and John in the back.

I thought Snooky Young played split lead.


I don't think so. The band already had two lead players, Doc and John Audino. that's not to say that Snooky didn't play lead from time to time.


Every player in that section was a beast. John was not always there, nor was Snooky, but they respected each other. It may have been like a band I played in for a couple of decades - each player got the parts they were best suited for.
_________________
BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
giakara
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 3826
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:
You need range, style, sound, chops, and above all, rhythm. If you can't keep time, you won't be a good lead player no matter how good everything else is.
This can all be had by practicing the right things and working with a metronome.
On YouTube look up Roger Ingram, Wayne Bergeron, Conrad Gozzo, Bernie Glow, Uan Rasey, Rick Baptist, Snooky and others.
All a bit different, but all fabulous.
By the way, Roger and Wayne have been friends since they were teenagers.
R. Tomasek


I would also include John Audino. That Tonight Show band set the standard with Doc up front and John in the back. Five days a week plus recordings. What a gig.



👍
_________________
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Big band lead playing Reply with quote

BBB1976 wrote:
Hi folks

What do you guys practice for big band lead playing, in preparation for it?

Best


Back before my injury when I had good lead chops part of my regimen included being well rested for the gig. I liked to choose the equipment that made my job as easy as possible. Being out of shape was rarely my problem. Instead I had to fight the condition known as "overtraining".

It took me about four to five years but after working through various mouthpiece changes, always going shallower, that I'd finally gotten it down to being able to play a mouthpiece some 4 to 5 notches smaller. Smaller that is than what I'd initially once thought id never be able to use. Each incremental mouthpiece change took about 3 to 6 months to fully adjust to.

My purpose in pushing myself to go shallower was to make certain that my mouthpiece was doing as much of the work as was mechanically possible.

And as well as this procedure once worked for me? I'm equally certain that some others won't find it useful at all. In fact with the way my new embouchure system works? It's not something I would recommend for my own playing. Some like it shallow and some like to go deep.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="giakara"]
adagiotrumpet wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:
You need range, style, sound, chops, and above all, rhythm. If you can't keep time, you won't be a good lead player no matter how good everything else is.
This can all be had by practicing the right things and working with a metronome.
On YouTube look up Roger Ingram, Wayne Bergeron, Conrad Gozzo, Bernie Glow, Uan Rasey, Rick Baptist, Snooky and others.
All a bit different, but all fabulous.
By the way, Roger and Wayne have been friends since they were teenagers.
R. Tomasek


I would also include John Audino. That Tonight Show band set the standard with Doc up front and John in the back. Five days a week plus recordings. What a gig.


And after Audino passed, another monster, Chuck Findley became the lead player,
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group