Stevens' upstream?

[Robert P]

Dunno but that's a fantastic performance. Thanks!
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[pepperdean]

How many times have we thought or posted 'get a teacher' in response to a post on TH? There is an immense amount of information on the internet but many of us need someone to objectively see what we're doing and sift through that information, find what has value for us at a particular point, and prescribe strategies for further our progress. We're all somewhere on the continuum from beginner to perfection and we can benefit from a spark of a valuable idea. I'm certainly a shadow of the player I was at one time, now living in the country, without many opportunities and old, no longer performing all of the time. However, I do my best to still play several hours each day, working to refine my playing from its current state. I believe as much as ever in getting a consultation from a good teacher who can look at what we're doing.

There's no way to really speculate on what was happening with Lin on the day he had to record "Something" with Buddy Rich. If it was an upper lip issue it could have been excess cheek tension, a horn angle that had slipped too low, or...who knows.

I really believe efficiency comes down to muscle engagement or what I like to call appropriate tension. This is what Carmine was after with his breath attack just as Roy was with his practice protocols - having the lips together, lined up so that air coming through an opening in the teeth could excite them and create a response. Simple, right? Ha!

I really think Jeff Smiley's tongue-on-lips exercise works the concept of this alignment really well. It works to keep your teeth are open, your lips in line, working from the corners and not closing as you ascend.

Of course, all of this is wisdom(?) I think I gained for my own playing and teaching, mostly from lessons I took decades ago. My advice would still be to avoid reading and trying to form an embouchure based on that reading. Go find a teacher.

Best to all. Thanks for the discussion. I've really enjoyed it. Now, I'm going back to playing.

Alan

[kehaulani]

Enjoyable post, Alan. Thanks.
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[rhighnote334]

Hi, Guys. The first airman is using an upstream embouchure. The 1/3 placement in the upper lip and 2/3 placement in the lower lip is one of Roy's Stevens teachings together with the 1/4" opening of the teeth, lips roll in and place between the teeth opening and air going towards the upper part of the mouthpiece. Lin's problem is a basic one that you will experience when you let your jaw to go back. I experience this many times and that is why the pencil exercise should we use everyday when practicing or facing difficulty with the high register. The second airman is a downstream player. Both players are getting excellent results with their choice of embouchures. These go back to the "use what works for you" philosophy. Thanks, Harry

[marathoner]

Did the Stevens/Costello method advocate for a certain mouthpiece ID and Cup size to make their method more effective ?

[Trptbenge]

Thank you Alan for providing such a clear description of Roy Stevens teaching philosophy. It gives me a different perspective on his method.

There are a lot of different systems that will help us develop range. I think this actually causes confusion to many players. If we, as players, are not making progress as fast as we expect many of us (me included) tend to give up or try something else. This is, of course, can be the worst thing you can do. Sometimes, when you learn a new skill your results and frustration are sometimes at the worst level just before a breakthrough. On the other hand sometimes the system isn't right for you. But as players we can be our best monitor of our progress. We need to be honest about our practice and dedication to learning a system. Doing something with a casual commitment to it won't get you to where you need to be. We need to find out what works in the practice room. We need to get guidance when we need but ultimately it is up to us.
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[amboguzzi]

[JayKosta]

[Trptbenge]

I think we need to be clear that I am not talking about a beginner. I am talking about the many players who comeback players, who play for fun or are "semi " professional players.

There are many players who enjoy playing and are happy with it. There are some who consistently work to be better and then you have a group who want to get better but don't really practice and work on basics (Arban, Clark, etc), They are also searching for the perfect mouthpiece and the perfect horn. They want to play a certain horn or mouthpiece because this professional plays it. I know several guys like this and, to some extent, I was like that. Of course, over the years I have listened to a lot of fine players in clinics like Arturo Sandoval - who stresses using Arban and Clark. When he said that Clifford Brown loved to practice the studies in the Arban book it gets your attention. So, practice the basics and if you are working on your embouchure likes Stevens, be prepared to do the work and face the challenges. I record myself playing ever so often and then I can hear where I can improve.
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[Lionel]

The success trumpet players find while studying the various good programs like Arbans and Clarke tend to be (in my humble opinion) contingent upon,

A. The direction their career or avocation is going and,

B. Whether their embouchure limits their overall development or not.

I mention direction because it's easier to learn lower register chops than to develop the more complex embouchure that allows the complete range of the instrument. If say someone only wanted to play in a cover band doing Herb Alpert's music? Then I can almost understand them not wishing to learn the Stevens system.

However as I begin to "dial in" this new embouchure? Well I'm starting to realize just how ridiculously EASY the upper register is.

I teach a young man whose been playing at a college level for abt ten years now. Around the same length of time I've known him. He's known me both before and after my catastrophic injury to my chops. Followed by my switch five months ago to the Stevens method. So he knows that I'm a neophyte to the game. Never the less he wants me to teach him the system. I call us the "half blind leading the blind".

He's doing pretty well though and can regularly squeak out the statics. Often notes well above double C! His education is very instructive to me. This because I know that if he succeeds on the Stevens method? Then I can start teaching others similarly too. I try to concentrate on the Stevens fundamentals. Such as the two aperture law and keeping the jaw open a quarter/inch..

Meanwhile my own technique is getting more secure. I'm trying to teach the man to descend from his "squeaker high G" down to the high C. And even though I've only been playing the Stevens system a mere 5 months? It's still pretty easy for me to control my High G. And I easily demonstrate to him a perfect fifth interval series of notes. This on a chromatic scale starting my high G going down to high C. This I've found to be a very important task. As the high note statics are played and practiced just to make sure that the new embouchure can develop them. This is something that other systems can't guarantee. Despite all their promises. However once the beginner to the Stevens system learns to easily blow his G and A/high C?

All he needs to do is retain that same embouchure and work it down to the third space C. Then later the second line G. To low C and finally low F#. We do not play pedals on Stevens-Costello. Because if you did? Well you'd understand why we don't. Pedals are what I call ANATHEMA to Stevens-Costello. In the Stevens system we "Roll- In" the chops. From this position it's pretty damned challenging to play pedal tones. That and entirely unnecessary. More than one Stevens embouchure playing trumpet player has commented that pedals "started screwing me up".

Pedal tone systems attain high notes differently. They do it by "pooching out" the chops deeper into the mouthpiece. Instead of rolling in.

The results of pedal tone systems tend to be hit or miss. I've found the "pooched" or "puckered-out" lips systems to often produce nasty cut-off points. That and sticky tones. Usually around or slightly above high G. On my former receded jaw chops I had a devil of a time getting above high G.

Whereas in the Stevens? Heck the G/high C is almost "just another note". I have no sticky tones either! None upstairs at all. A high G# or high A has no difference in tonal quality than the note below. I can ascend seamlessly. Each and every day that goes by I look forward to waking up. Because I can see my progress every day!
By the way, just because this system starts a kid off in the extreme upper register it doesn't mean that we develop high notes immediately. Nothing is an overnight fix. Instead I spend the bulk of my practice session in the middle register and up to high C. This is what we call the cash "register".
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[dstpt]

[kehaulani]

Lionel - High G is the one sitting on the top of the staff. Do you mean this one or Double High G (G over High C)? Thanks.
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[delano]

Only one thing is really sure: writing about high notes is much easier than to play them.

[Lionel]

Per both dstpt and Kehaulani.

Am limited in my use of the quotation function.
Dstpt asked "What is the missing link"?

I believe that due to the incredible power or leverage into accessing the extreme upper register that the Stevens-Costello system gives a trumpet player that in some cases conventional mouthpieces are too small. Specifically the inner rim dimensions of stock mouthpieces could be too tight.

I could never make hay out of the Stevens system. Couldn't get much volume. This went on for years as I experimented on the system off and on. Those years stretched into freakin decades. Hope you'll never know my frustration. However I'm one of those guys handy with tools. So I finally decided to fabricate my own mouthpiece cups. Didn't bother with carving any shanks as that is more difficult. Instead I simply cut the cups off of old mouthpieces and then soldered on solid brass. Large brass washers were particularly useful. As the inner dimension on them is already both known and of a perfect roundness.

Sometimes I'll solder two brass washers onto a mouthpiece shank. Sometimes three. In the past I'd fooled around with solid epoxy cups and while helpful? The finish was always too rough or sticky for my chops. In turn this poor surface limited my articulation and accuracy. Really stymied my development. So I finally got the idea of soldering brass washers together. This really helped.

Summation to dstpt. The missing link Ive found has been to switch to a mouthpiece about 20 to 30% wider in inside diameter than average pieces. Or look at it this way, average trumpet mouthpieces can almost hold a dime flat inside their inner rim. While mine hold a whole nickel easily.

After I accomplished this? My progress has been fantastic. Everything in the Stevens-Costello book adds up now.

Kehaulani: the G you mention is not "high G" but "G on top of the staff". I like to reference this as "G/staff".

What you call "double G" is really what the pros refer to as "High G". The "High G" meaning "G above High C". Specifically this is the G found on the middle of the fourth ledger line above the staff. Most notes above High C will be referenced this way too. Such as,

"D above High C". "E above High C" "F above etc. Another way to abbreviate when writing is,
"G/High C".

If you become a true aficionado of the Stevens system you may just find it necessary to start learning to define the notes above Double C. For these the best glossary I've seen goes,

D/DHC meaning the D above Double C
E/DHC the E above Double C etc on up to Triple C.

Although sometimes as I see these notes reach the end of a C scale I'll refer to them as "A natural below Double C" or "A<DHC"
Or B flat below Triple C" as "B flat< THC".

It should be noted that the Stevens system is definitely not an overnight cure developing spectacular high notes before your next concert. Although some players really do catch on PDQ. I think that Roy Roman was one of these.type. Patience, an open mind and perseverance will be required.

You'll have good days and less than good days. Since your chops will be utilizing new muscles you'll often find yourself overdoing it. Falling into the temporary abyss of overtrained chops. Especially if, like myself you once were a pretty strong trumpet player on your former embouchure. Roy Stevens was quoted as saying that he thought that three years was about the average length of time it took to really harness all the forces in the embouchure.

Another matter missing in the book besides the possibility of needing larger mouthpieces is it really lacks much explanation of how to pull those statics and squeaks down into the middle register. Further I would highly recommend that beginners to the system avoid a lot of articulation. Tonguing tends to put a strong jolt on the fledgling embouchure. So I'd spend the first six months using breath attacks only.

And don't bother with the lowest register for a while. As low tones are the easiest register anyway. The world is filled to the brim with lower register playing trumpets. Wait until your Double C solidly connects to your Low C before venturing much downstairs to Low F#. I'm kind if at that point now myself. After a good warm up my notes connect smoothly from Low C to DHC or at least close to it.

I just wish that I could have figured all of this stuff out forty years ago.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).

[dstpt]

Thanks for the explanation, Lionel!

[kehaulani]

"What you call "double G" is really what the pros refer to as "High G".

The Pros? My good man. I have been a professional musician since the '60s, with both a lot of street and formal education. And I don't need a discourse on musical terminology.

Try this out for size:
Low G = G below the staff
Middle G = G in the staff
High G = G above the staff
Double High G = G above High C

See the logic in this system?

Because of ambiguity from some, I usually just refer to anything above High C as X Above High C, rather than Double High X. But that is a matter of expediency. To add confusion to some, there's also the difference between what an instrumentalist calls a note within their own system vs. the Grand Staff.
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[JayKosta]

[trumpetteacher1]

Lionel is correct. Most of the older pros simply called it a high G. Many of the best players I know today maintain that tradition.

Claude Gordon used to (gently) mock those who called it a "double G." He learned his terminology from Herbert Clarke, Conrad Gozzo, Manny Klein, etc.

It still surprises me how flustered that players get on this topic. Call it whatever you want. I simply prefer to connect to the old school guys. There is something about calling it a high G which implies that it is not that big of a deal.

Jeff

[TrpPro]

My note naming system. You can't go wrong (I don't think).

Lowest note on horn is F#1. Next note G1. Up to E1. Then it would be F#2.
Low C would be C1

Tuning note is C2... high C is C3... double C is C4, etc.

All other notes numbered the same way.

G over high C fourth ledger line would simply be G4

No more (for me anyway)... high, double high, triple, low, middle, tuning, over, under, /,\, etc., etc.

[kehaulani]