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Dkjcliff
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Joined: 12 Apr 2020
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 Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:16 pm Post subject: Quiet high notes |
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Hi,
I'm a comeback player about 6 weeks into my latest foray back. Everything is going well. I feel like I've become a better player in these 6 weeks of 45-minute per day practice sessions than I ever was when practicing and playing several hours a day. Anyway, that's kind of beside the point for my question.
I'm currently focused on improving my range. I can hit up to E flat above the staff very solidly with good tone and volume. E is a little shaky. To hit anything higher I have to play pianissi-iss-issimo. If I add any air to increase the volume it feels like my embouchure gets blown apart and I just get air coming out of the horn. If I try to exert a little extra pressure to hold things together, it cuts off the buzz. I know there are some techniques that focus on playing very quiet in the upper register to get a feeling for the notes, but how do you transform it into usable range? I've been doing it for several weeks now and it feels like I'm not seeing any further development. I should mention that I am a downstream player and when I get above D or so I need to start pivoting the horn down rather sharply to keep going up.
Any thoughts and advice would be welcome. Thanks!
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rmch
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Joined: 20 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Eb, E, and F are not very far away from each other - do you think you start doing something differently once you start getting up to E and beyond? The next time you play an Eb, play it softly and observe everything you're doing as best you can: the mouthpiece pressure, how much you're engaging your corners, your air support, and your tongue arch. Then play an E, and observe everything again. If you're doing things properly, it should feel pretty much the same: your mouthpiece pressure might be increased by a tiny bit, your corners might be engaging a tiny bit more, you might be supporting with your diaphragm a tiny bit more, and you might be raising your tongue arch a tiny bit higher inside your mouth. That's it, it shouldn't feel wildly different or much more effort. Assuming the E feels basically the same as the Eb, go to the F and observe everything again and figure out what is changing and what isn't. From there, you might be able to figure out what you need to change and what you need to keep the same in order for the note to feel comfortable.
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1919 King Liberty
1923 Conn 22B
1955 Selmer 24A (Balanced Action)
1981 LA Benge ML #3 bell
1938 Couesnon Flugel
1907 HN White Co. "King" Cornet
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cheiden
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Patience. 6 weeks is nothing.
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | | Patience. 6 weeks is nothing. |
Agreed. If the notes are coming out even at low volume you're making great progress. Keep practicing them trying ways to get more volume. You'll train your embouchure to produce results. This might develop very slowly. It could take months. Don't get discouraged. Progress on trumpet is notoriously slow. Those who practice diligently and correctly are ultimately rewarded.
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Quiet high notes |
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| Dkjcliff wrote: | Hi,
I'm a comeback player about 6 weeks into my latest foray back. Everything is going well. I feel like I've become a better player in these 6 weeks of 45-minute per day practice sessions than I ever was when practicing and playing several hours a day. Anyway, that's kind of beside the point for my question.
I'm currently focused on improving my range. I can hit up to E flat above the staff very solidly with good tone and volume. E is a little shaky. To hit anything higher I have to play pianissi-iss-issimo. If I add any air to increase the volume it feels like my embouchure gets blown apart and I just get air coming out of the horn. If I try to exert a little extra pressure to hold things together, it cuts off the buzz. I know there are some techniques that focus on playing very quiet in the upper register to get a feeling for the notes, but how do you transform it into usable range? I've been doing it for several weeks now and it feels like I'm not seeing any further development. I should mention that I am a downstream player and when I get above D or so I need to start pivoting the horn down rather sharply to keep going up.
Any thoughts and advice would be welcome. Thanks! |
What mouthpiece?
I always ask because some players are advised to go shallower and believe it or not? Some are advised to use mouthpieces with rims that have wider inside diameters. I almost feel like advising those who have the money to go out and buy some good metal lathe. One with all the necessary accessories to craft, and alter their own pieces. That and explore the near endless possibilities of cranking out better high notes.
In my own case I recently changed to the Stevens Costello embouchure. This was back last Thanksgiving. And OMG! You just wouldn't believe the progress Ive made. On what is a truly different chop setting. Yet for me I had to go with an extra large inner rim dimension but with fairly shallow mouthpiece cup.
So tell us what mouthpiece you use. Keep this very positive idea in mind,
At least you're able to play the high E flat! As from.my experience the E flat is in the same series as F and G above. Theory goes that if you can play a good high E flat? You'll eventually play the high G.
Now the worst stymie is actually below your cut-off tone and that's the poor guy who gets stuck at high C. This should usually be easily corrected. Until it is fixed however the High C/D cut-off point is the single greatest frustration and nuisance in trumpet history.
Always remember that you are inevitably your own best teacher. It's like Jeff Smiley says quote, "We become our own teachers".
But I would like to take a minute here to say one to maybe two things more, if you can understand the "Two aperture theory" and apply it to your embouchure training? It will really help you fix your range problems. At least as much as can be done within the framework of your existing embouchure.
As for me? I finally got sick & tired of playing on what Roy Stevens called a "limited embouchure". So just last November I began the complete conversion of my embouchure over to the Stevens system. With this program we concentrate on both understanding the muscular usage and teeth, jaw, embouchure and facial muscles necessary to play the complete range of the instrument. Which is roughly a triple C on the high end. People certainly can play higher but there certainly isn't any musical need. However if we learn to understand our chops, make them set and available to play extreme register then we can easily meet any of the range demands our modern music places upon us. Why play an F above double C? Because if we can blow the F/DHC fairly easily then any note below this tone is simply inconsequential. As Stevens said,
"A man who can lift 200 lbs can easily lift a hundred lbs but the reverse is not so".
Anyway I started the complete conversion over to the Stevens system last Thanksgiving. A totally different way of putting my lips, jaw and teeth together than before. I keep my teeth open 1/4 inch almost all the time now. At first I could only squeak a high F. But I applied myself hard. Daily practice and reading Stevens book daily. Concentrating on the proper formation for UNLIMITED range. And now as I come up on my sixth month or half of a year? I've got a pretty strong high F. And am able most days to ascend close to another octave higher. My embouchure works according to the physical laws that are necessary to play extreme range. And I got my first double forte high G just yesterday. And I did it without turning scarlet red in the face. Nor by jamming the horn down my throat just to play the doggone tone.
So maybe a complete conversion to the Stevens system isn't for you. I understand. Starting over from scratch was an unappealing task to my thinking too. However had I known that I could take just six months off and become well on my way to really getting this range stuff down? Oh heck I'd have switched over a long time ago.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Quiet high notes |
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| Dkjcliff wrote: | | ... If I try to exert a little extra pressure to hold things together, it cuts off the buzz. ... |
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Yes, that's (and lip injury) the downfall of the 'muscle method'.
Your lip HAS to be able to vibrate - not smashed flat, or stretched like guitar string.
Try applying a little forward pressure from your lower lip onto the rim by using your lower jaw muscles - NOT by pulling the rim backwards or tilting the horn. The extra pressure from your lower lip can reduce the pressure on the upper lip for better 'pressure balance', and also allows the upper lip to vibrate.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Dkjcliff
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Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the input everyone.
In response to Lionel, I'm currently playing on a Bach 3B. I've tried using shallower pieces, but I tend to bottom out. My lips are fairly fleshy with lots of red exposed. The 3B feels comfortable for me. I have found that I naturally use the pucker technique as I go higher and I think the 3B gives me the necessary depth for this.
Over the years I've also toyed with trying to switch to an upstream embouchure a la Stevens and co. Once in high school I was messing around with different setups. I started imitating a friend who played with a pretty extreme upstream embouchure (and sounded awful, but he never practiced). I could barely play in the low and middle registers with the upstream setup, but to my great surprise, suddenly a high G popped out with great ease. It was clear and loud. Similar to now, I could barely get a good high E back then with my typical embouchure. Over the years, during various comebacks, I've tried to get that setup going. But I always return to my downstream embouchure because the upstream one takes so much more effort and I can't seem to play with a decent tone or control below the high register. I feel like there's a lot more back pressure. With my downstream setup, the air flows much more freely. But since I've got the time now (I'm not playing in any groups) maybe I should invest the time to try it. I don't really have the money for lessons. Is this something I could figure out on my own? What books would I need to acquire?
Thanks again.
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Yamaha YHF-635T Flugelhorn
Martin Indiana Cornet |
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Dkjcliff wrote: | Thanks for the input everyone.
In response to Lionel, I'm currently playing on a Bach 3B. I've tried using shallower pieces, but I tend to bottom out. My lips are fairly fleshy with lots of red exposed. The 3B feels comfortable for me. I have found that I naturally use the pucker technique as I go higher and I think the 3B gives me the necessary depth for this.
Over the years I've also toyed with trying to switch to an upstream embouchure a la Stevens and co. Once in high school I was messing around with different setups. I started imitating a friend who played with a pretty extreme upstream embouchure (and sounded awful, but he never practiced). I could barely play in the low and middle registers with the upstream setup, but to my great surprise, suddenly a high G popped out with great ease. It was clear and loud. Similar to now, I could barely get a good high E back then with my typical embouchure. Over the years, during various comebacks, I've tried to get that setup going. But I always return to my downstream embouchure because the upstream one takes so much more effort and I can't seem to play with a decent tone or control below the high register. I feel like there's a lot more back pressure. With my downstream setup, the air flows much more freely. But since I've got the time now (I'm not playing in any groups) maybe I should invest the time to try it. I don't really have the money for lessons. Is this something I could figure out on my own? What books would I need to acquire?
Thanks again. |
Referring to the Stevens system. You probably shouldn't ignore that truly good high G. But then again I did too so I understand. I came so close to getting a handle on the Stevens system but like yourself put it down. That was roughly ten years ago. Had i stuck with it? I'd be better off.
There is something missing from Stevens-Costello though and here's what i think it is,
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In the Stevens system we get an incredible physical leverage into the upper register. Much of this comes from the rolling in of the chops. However most stock mouthpieces can't seem:to allow enough freedom for the upper lip to vibrate while rolled in so much.
Personal to dkjcliff, resolving the problem you just described has been my life's work. I call what I've learned over 55 years of trumpet playing to be the "missing link to Stevens-Costello". I take this effort very seriously. Roy Stevens was the most brilliant light we've ever had in terms of chops. However he endured way too much abuse from no-nothings. Hell the guy had total command of everything up to Quad C!! And on some days even more range.
Here's what I think is his missing link!!
The way I fixed this was to make my own mouthpiece rim. Currently my mouthpiece runs about 20% wider in it's inside diameter distance than ordinary pieces do. Instead of a dime sized inner rim dimension? Mine's about a nickel. I had to check the US mint to get the exact dimension. My piece is running about 0.824 inch inside diameter. Like I said I had to make it myself but hey it works great! For the first time in ages I'm improving at a fantastic clip. I look forward to waking up each day just to practice and improve more.
Will leave my contact info on a private message. And if you want? I'll make you one of those described pieces. But for you I would probably not go quite as big as my 0.824. Maybe just 0.750.
Check your pms in a minute!
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Dkjcliff
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Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Quick update: today's practice session was much more productive due in no small part to the tips everyone offered here. I was able to get some very good sounding F's and even a couple of pretty decent F#'s and G's. I topped out on a tiny A flat.
Here's what I did in case it can help anyone in a similar situation:
1. Focused on not dropping my horn angle so dramatically as I ascended. Tried to keep it more like my standard angle.
2. Focused on using less pressure overall, but especially on the upper lip. Tried to anchor the horn on my lower jaw more and keep it from receding.
3. Concentrated on the feel of my lips vibrating, really trying to assess what they were doing.
4. Focused on using more concentrated air instead of trying to just push more air through the horn. I think of it as intensity instead of force. Not sure if this makes sense, but helps me conceptualize it.
5. Did NOT warm up with pedal tones, which I typically do. Tried to keep my embouchure in a comfortable mid-range setting.
6. Took plenty of time to rest between each attempt high note attempt.
I think this basically combined everyone's advice on this thread. Much appreciated!
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