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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 892 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:40 am Post subject: |
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ok, but it's always a question of balance. Doc has proven along all his career that he put the right amount of tension and relaxation where these had to be. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:07 am Post subject: |
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JVL wrote: | ok, but it's always a question of balance. Doc has proven along all his career that he put the right amount of tension and relaxation where these had to be. |
Yes, I've been to one of Doc's seminars and when he talks about a "relaxed center" he's not talking about a completely tensionless center. He does talk about the fact that playing requires some tension even in the center but, as you say, the tension has to be balanced so that it doesn't stop the vibrations you want but does stop vibrations you don't want (the ones that interfere with a clean and pure sound). Doc is extremely big on the sound being the most important thing in playing trumpet.
The players that never miss must have that balance down perfectly and match it with a steady and controlled airstream. Sergei makes it look ridiculously easy. It makes me wonder if there are any physical characteristics that provide an advantage, make it easier to form an embouchure that is naturally less likely to have interference problems. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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area51recording Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480
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Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:22 am Post subject: |
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This discussion jogged my memory about something. When I was a kid back in high school and early part of college I got to know a guy who was a band director at a neighboring high school. This guy was a trumpet player, pretty good too, and at some point during the time I knew him he went through an embouchure change. When he came out the other end of it his chops looked different. In fact they looked a LOT like Sergei's, with kind of a downward sort of frowning lip position. He also was much more of a downstream player after the change. The other thing I remember is that he had the purest tone I'd ever heard him produce, and seemed to have an almost flute-like facility, but he lacked power in his playing. He could play beautifully up to a high F or G, but not with a big sound at all. I wish I could remember what he did, or who he went to to learn this. I guess I mention it because of the similarity in Sergei's setup and how this guy appropriated it, and how it led to much more of THAT style of playing, in his case..... |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 897 Location: California
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Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:23 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | JVL wrote: | ok, but it's always a question of balance. Doc has proven along all his career that he put the right amount of tension and relaxation where these had to be. |
It makes me wonder if there are any physical characteristics that provide an advantage, make it easier to form an embouchure that is naturally less likely to have interference problems. |
Of course, everyone has advantages and disadvantages in every trade, artform, line of work. A 7 foot basketball player has obvious natural advantages over shorter players. But that doesn't mean a shorter player can't develop a better outside shot!
Point being, yeah of course he is talented, but everybody has to work on their technique, Sergei incuded, so no need to compare baseline physical tools. I think everybody has potential to develop their physical tools into being an incredible trumpet player, it might just take longer for some. |
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Claude1949 Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2018 Posts: 188 Location: maryland
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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How many Albert Einsteins were there? Why can't we trumpeters simply accept that some lucky people have been given much more talent than most of us? It is NOT a matter of practice or equipment....I was a good friend of an operatic baritone in the Met Opera who also played trumpet; he never practiced & could just pick up his horn and play the flight of the bumblebee perfectly! I was always practicing & could not even play the 1st few bars........but, Sergei is NOT going to come & play lead in my city band, so, there is a place for me. Not everyone can be a genius......... _________________ Claudio |
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Claude1949 Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2018 Posts: 188 Location: maryland
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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is discussion jogged my memory about something. When I was a kid back in high school and early part of college I got to know a guy who was a band director at a neighboring high school. This guy was a trumpet player, pretty good too, and at some point during the time I knew him he went through an embouchure change. When he came out the other end of it his chops looked different. In fact they looked a LOT like Sergei's, with kind of a downward sort of frowning lip position. He also was much more of a downstream player after the change. The other thing I remember is that he had the purest tone I'd ever heard him produce, and seemed to have an almost flute-like facility, but he lacked power in his playing. He could play beautifully up to a high F or G, but not with a big sound at all. I wish I could remember what he did, or who he went to to learn this. I guess I mention it because of the similarity in Sergei's setup and how this guy appropriated it, and how it led to much more of THAT style of playing, in his case.....
I will bet My trumpet that this guy probably discovered Jerry Callet's "Trumpet Yoga." I have been using it & it is a revelation about correct embouchure...... _________________ Claudio |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 722 Location: SE US
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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A quote by Chris Gekker from his Fifteen Studies for Piccolo Trumpet comes to mind regarding the OP: When a trumpeter achieves a highly efficient balance, the impression is of very little effort being expended, which confuses some observers. Actually a tremendous amount of energy is being used, but since all the systems are working together in harmony, none is being wasted.
Efficiency vs brute force!
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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area51recording Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Also, you gotta watch these guys.....they can be sneaky. In college I studied with a dude named Norman Smith (I think among other things he was principal for a time with the New Orleans Phil). Norman had that really "flute like" quality to his playing, but he was also good buddies with a guy named.... Lew Soloff, and would go sub every now and then for Lew in the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis band, which you're not going to do if you don't also have "those" kind of chops. Gotta say, Norman really didn't dig it much when he WOULD do it though. I remember having a lesson with him one time the day after one of the Village Vanguard gigs (Monday nights? It WAS the 80's) and he told me he made like $15 and felt like he'd been hit in the mouth with a brick...... |
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Winghorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2156 Location: Olympia, Washington
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Look at how many hundreds if not thousands of Olympic hopefuls do not make the team, regardless of how hard they train. Same goes for boxers, basketball players and yes... trumpet players.
There is such a thing as natural gifts. I remember a television special that looked at some of the reasons why Michael Phelps was such a phenomenal swimmer. The moderators concluded he had the ideal body type considering the physics involved in swimming. Sure he worked incredibly hard, but so did the athletes against whom he competed.
By diligent practice over many years, we trumpet players can become the best we can be as individuals. But the majority of us will not end up world-class players. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try, though.
Steve
P.S.- I once asked the late, great Frank Minear (high note specialist for Stan Kenton) how he developed his amazing range. He replied that he just realized one day in high school that he could play high. |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5225 Location: ca.
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Trumpet players...
Maybe the most ego centric artists....
Not a bad thing, I mean this thing sitting in the felt is a bitch..... _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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gtromble Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Mar 2002 Posts: 644 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Effortless comes from efficiency. It doesn't mean you're not working hard. It means you're doing just the right amount of work and not wasting energy that manifests as tension. For me, "effort" is the extra, unnecessary work and tension above what is truly needed.
How do you play effortlessly? By continually backing off, relaxing into what you're doing, finding the spot where you're perfecting the actions and energy to play the piece with nothing extra or wasted. This includes how you take in and use your air.
Don't stop practicing when you can play a piece well. That's when the practice of effortlessness begins. _________________ Galen Tromble
Silver Spring, Maryland |
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dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Apologies for coming in late
I discovered a long time ago that it takes an incredible amount of effort to make anything look effortless.
Without a shadow of a doubt he has put in obscene amounts of effort and work over the years to attain the pinnacle he now is on.
Determination hard work solid continual practice developing the best technique.
Taking no prisoners and taking no shortcuts striving for perfection.
This is what makes a great player great.
I have nothing but respect and admiration for him.
Players should learn from him and not question him on how he reached the dizzying heights he has reached.
Anyone who knows this instrument well will know exactly what it took for him to reach where he is now.
If you put in the work in the woodshed you get the results you deserve by that work.
And he could have built a cathedral several times over with the work he put in.
The trumpet is a meritocracy it delivers to us what we merit, and I am pathetically grateful for the honor it bestows upon me.
Let us treasure him we are lucky to have him. _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet |
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wilder Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 341 Location: NYC
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Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Winghorn wrote: | Look at how many hundreds if not thousands of Olympic hopefuls do not make the team, regardless of how hard they train. Same goes for boxers, basketball players and yes... trumpet players.
There is such a thing as natural gifts. I remember a television special that looked at some of the reasons why Michael Phelps was such a phenomenal swimmer. The moderators concluded he had the ideal body type considering the physics involved in swimming. Sure he worked incredibly hard, but so did the athletes against whom he competed.
By diligent practice over many years, we trumpet players can become the best we can be as individuals. But the majority of us will not end up world-class players. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try, though.
Steve
P.S.- I once asked the late, great Frank Minear (high note specialist for Stan Kenton) how he developed his amazing range. He replied that he just realized one day in high school that he could play high. | yup |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Wilder is totally correct but does not go far enough.
I know through experience that we humans are all capable of far more than we think we are. The measure if a man is not how gifted he is it is how unwilling he is to accept failure.
I refuse to accept failure in those immortal words "there is no try, there is only do"
I see niche thinking, that is not a bad thing it leads to specialisation, - blues musicians, orchestral musicians, basketball players, golfers, divers.
But I also see false expectations. When we reach a level we think we are suited to and happy with we can stop trying. We reach the level we expect to reach and are happy.
There are diminishing returns. At first progress is rapid and the equation is, work x 1 = improvement x 10
Then after many years the equation slowly becomes work x 1 = improvement x 1
And then to improve is a chore and does not deliver greater success easily
The equation becomes work x 10 = improvement x 1
The good player stops trying to get better because it appears they have reached their limit and there are plenty of critics who will falsely tell us what our limits are.
The great players do not stop when work x 10 = improvement x 1 they just keep going with incredible tenacity.
Tenacity is the key
A music teacher said once that he would rather teach an ungifted student than a gifted prodigy.
In his experience the prodigy finds it too easy and does not treasure their advancement and in almost every case gives up when things get a bit tough as they always do.
He wants to teach the ungifted player who cannot string 2 notes together because he has tenacity and will go far and wont stop until he gets there.
We cannot fly until we are ready but even when we are ready and we have been trained and we can fly we sometimes do not believe we are ready.
There is a quote
Come to the edge.
We might fall.
Come to the edge.
It's too high!
COME TO THE EDGE!
And they came,
and he pushed,
And they flew.
We need training we need hard work we need tenacity we need a teacher we need courage and if we fail at any one of these we fail to reach our potential and we fail ourselves.
But if we do not fail at any of these we can fly
We all climb and spread our wings and step off and and fall and some crawl away the rest climb again and step off and fall and some crawl away the rest climb again and step off.
Eventually some will fly but many will not. It is the ones who tenaciously refuse to give up who will soar with the eagles. _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet |
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