Newbie questions - average time + usable range

[m1tch]

Hi all,

I am new on the forum, I used to play a tenor horn back in school when I was younger although stopped at grade 1 (like a lot of people!). Anyway I decided to pick up a trumpet as I have always liked them as they are more versatile and compact and have a larger range of possible notes etc.

Anyway, it arrived last Wednesday afternoon and I have been practising every day in short stints and resting when I feel the tone isn't as bright or as solid as it should be.

I have practised for around 16 hours so far and my current range is the low F sharp up to a middle? D (4th ledger) - with the E only just earlier.

I have gone through a fair few beginner music sheets so far, also played frere jacques - grabbed what I thought was a beginner sheet but it went up to middle D which I seem to be ok to play.

Anyway, I was just wondering what sort of 'average' time it would take to get into the higher registers from a beginner.

My other question is about the most usable range I should aim for to encapsulate most songs or tunes? Just looking at 'fly me to the moon' which seems to go as high as middle D with 'what a wonderful world' going up to an E - but at least still within the staff!

Sorry for the newbie questions, I am aware that it will take a lot of time, especially getting to the higher registers but considering on my first day of practice I could play 5 notes, and today its more like 20 its been fun so far!

Thanks in advance!

[JayKosta]

Your first concern regarding 'range' should be to START with a proper embouchure (lip muscle control and usage) that will allow long term improvement in range.

If you (as many of us have done) try to use mouthpiece pressure, and/or 'stretched thin lips' to squeak out higher notes, you'll likely injure your lips, or end with a limited range beyond which your lips can't function.

check here for my initial recommendations -
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1592818#1592818

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[HERMOKIWI]

For most players it takes a long time to develop reliable range above the staff. I think that's mostly because most players don't receive proper instruction on how to play trumpet. Instead, they get a little introduction and then are left to figure it out on their own.

I'm a self taught player. I started when I was 10 years old. I was in 8th grade (14 years old) before I could play an A above the staff with any reliability. I was one of the few in my class who could do that. In retrospect it seems ridiculous it took that long. A above the staff is really not a very high note. It comes easy now. So, why did it take so long?

I think the answer is that no one showed me how it's done. No one showed me anything about the technique necessary. I just had to go through a trial and error (mostly error) process.

Having a competent teacher is a big advantage.
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HERMOKIWI

[cgaiii]

1. Necessary usable range: Look at/listen to the music you want to play and figure out the trumpet range.

2. Go slow. Play with a nice a tone as you can in your easy range, concentrate on getting what you consider a good sound. Record yourself and be sure.

3. Get a good teacher early on to avoid. There are lots of people here on this forum that teach online, and that might be your best bet at this point. If you get someone to help you with the basics now, you will progress much more rapidly in the future.
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[m1tch]

Thanks for all the help, I will recheck my embouchure technique - I have no teacher and its been a while since I have played brass so I am worried I will fall into the wrong technique thinking its the right approach.

Would the below be a good guide? I have tried to make sure i'm not trying to tighten or strain my lips together for higher notes as that just cuts off the air - although now starting to get confused as to which technique is correct!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLE_-ly8hrQ

I am trying my best to support the sound with tighter muscles around the mouth with a looser pressure on the face with my teeth slightly open but still supporting my lips etc. Am I learning it the wrong way? I did noticed that when I was trying to get some of the higher notes the mouthpiece lost the seal with my lips so I know something isn't right - trying to work out how to transition between the different embouchure for the lower and higher notes.

I guess my question is, how do I change to a different embouchure - starting to get a bit confused. Have seen a 'smile' embouchure technique being used so using the muscles around to increase and decrease the lip pressure to increase or decrease the buzz - is this no longer used?

Just looking at the 'comeback trumpeters guide' in the handy link Jay sent the procedure is the below, I am doing everything exactly as below in terms of setup, my question would be lip compression - is this the root of the technique I need to learn.

My question around lip compression would be - to compress the lips is this done by the actual lips or done with other face muscles? Eg am I aiming to setup the embouchure and then only tense/relax JUST the lips to get the buzz I am after with the rest of my face sort of locked in place?

1. Good posture. Chest, arms and head up.
2. Relax jaw and open throat.
3. Teeth 1/2 inch apart. Jaw forward.
4. Pull the mouth corners in toward your lips.
5. Roll both lips in slightly. You want a hint of an inward curl.
6. Let the lips touch and expose to air. Say "M".
7. Buzzing firmness before placing mouthpiece.
8. Place mouthpiece gently on lips.
9. Little mouthpiece pressure.
10. Breathe and blow. Don't hold it in.
11. Pivot to keep mouthpiece lined up with air stream.
12. Lip compression will give you upper register. Lip against lip.
13. Relax the chops. Back off the pressure and make the air work.
14. Always set for a g on top of the staff. The lips can easily relax 1&1/2 octaves to get
to low c and high g is only an octave away.
15. Always set chops, place mouthpiece, blow.

Sorry for all the newbie questions, coming from a tenor horn its a much much lower register when learning so my lips were looser etc.

With regards to the various songs/tunes I am aiming for, a fair few of them have notes within the staff so guessing a middle E would work however there are a few goal pieces (will take many years!) such as a piece by Ennio Morricone eg this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnt8M_80udo

In terms of going slow - I have learnt a huge amount within a week, just concerned I need to relearn everything! Will work on tone etc in the easier beginner notes and record myself.

[Eliot]

G'day ... I'm not expert; rather a bit of a novice but I have played tenor horn years ago.

FWIW ...
Several things I haven't noticed in the comments thus far.

1) the tenor horn, from my limited experience, is an easier horn to play than the trumpet - larger mouthpiece assists considerably, I would guess.

2) so far the variable positioning of the tongue has not been mentioned. The tongue position, is very important to reach the higher notes. The Trumpet Herald experts will be able to provide more information on working with your tongue, air flow and what some term, air pressure.

3) Reckon I'd suggest, at this stage, reducing the number of hours you are practising. One's chops, unless conditioned to long hours "attached" to the mouthpiece, will be unwittingly injured if not careful. One can bash one's fingers against a keyboard for hours usually, but pushing the chops against the trumpet, in my book, is not advisable. I've been there and done that, and then wondered why it takes so long to "warm up." Mini breaks (5, 10, 15 minutes) can often provide the relief the chops need.

4) Those professionals we see in video clips and on Trumpet Herald have often spent a lifetime of hard work getting the experience, practise and performance skills we "newbies" or "returnees" to the horn envy and would like to imitate.

5) long within-the-staff-notes will help develop your tone and pitch.

FWIW
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Eliot
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[m1tch]

[JayKosta]

[m1tch]

[JayKosta]

[m1tch]

I just need to double check something then, I am happy with:

Setting up the embouchure
Mouthpiece position
Relaxed pressure on mouthpiece

My main question is what I need to do with my lips/face when moving up to the higher notes (even within the staff) do I:

1 - Keep everything else tight and manipulate just my lips inside the mouthpiece to change the aperture size to increase the buzz

2 - Keep my lips the same in the mouthpiece but pull my lips outwards using the muscles to each side of my lips to sort of thin out my lips to change the aperture

3 - Something else

Just need to work out what I need to do with my lips/face muscles to be able to change the aperture of my embouchure to be able to increase the buzz for higher notes.

[JayKosta]

[m1tch]

Ah ok, I think I get it a bit more now - so basically after forming the embouchure and the mouthpiece is in place its the lips that adjust the aperture of the part of the lip inside the mouthpiece rather than anything else. With the muscles around the lips being there for support?

[JayKosta]

I don't know how to explain it in more detail. I don't think of 'inner' or 'outer' lips as separate entities while playing - I adjust the entire set of muscles (basically by 'feel' and 'trial and error') to find what works.
Changing pitch does involve control and adjustment of all the muscles that affect the lips (and the muscles that affect the tongue and jaw), but I have difficulty translating the physical feeling into a precise written description.

I suggest working on easy 'same valve' lip slurs to learn the lip adjustments - e.g.
C below the staff - 2nd line G (all valves open) - doing both upward and downward lip slurs
B - F# (2)
Bb - F (1)
etc. downward to (123)

and similar doing 3rd space C and 2nd line G, down thru (123) F# and C# below staff.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[m1tch]

[m1tch]

Think I have just found an amazing video explaining what I am probably doing wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujrTDbnvDpU

Keep the same aperture size and increase in the speed of the air = higher note

Increased air speed means the lips need to be held back to the same size, once this is done the higher air speed past the lips buzzes the lips at a higher tone.

I shouldn't move my lips closer together to get a higher note as this is limited, same with thinning the lips out as there is only so far you can go.

I just tried this and it seems to help - just holding all valves open I can go from a C to a G to a C when I control the size of the aperture of the lips with the muscles around it.

I think the key take out from the video I found was that we aren't trying to buzz our lips, we are just trying to pass air over them at different speeds to make them buzz differently.

[kalijah]

[JayKosta]

[m1tch]

Will see how I go I guess, I can get up to a D within the staff, E at the top of the staff is a struggle.

How long on average would it take to be able to comfortably get to those sort of notes?

[Beyond16]