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Cornet in A


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dfcoleman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:59 am    Post subject: Cornet in a Reply with quote

I believe Schilke made a few A cornets at one point.
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matthes93401
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I promised to follow-up after I had pursued the A-adapter option...

So I reached out to TrueVee about making a Bb-to-A adapter for my CarolBrass Bb cornet (the model that looks like a Benge 8Z). The cornet mouthpiece adapter part, while beautifully machined, didn't produce a reliable key-of-A scale. I think the leadpipe taper employed by CarolBrass is significantly different than most.

Michael, at TrueVee, was very knowledgeable and professional. He offered a full refund.

I asked to try the stock TrueVee Bb-to-A adapter for trumpet, and it works pretty well for my Schilke X4B Bb trumpet. The difference is that the main tuning slide goes out at least twice as much, and the 1st and 3rd slides require twice the reach on notes involving 1, 1+2, 1+3, 2+3, and 1+2+3. The change is predictable. So a refund wasn't necessary, as I just applied the credit for the trumpet adapter.

I did also try the adapter on my CarolBrass Bb trumpet, but again, the results weren't reliable. Mr. Lee at CarolBrass must have designed leadpipes significantly different than those used in American trumpets.

So I'm happy with the outcome, now that I can have an adapter for reading parts in A. This is a major convenience when an Arthur Sullivan overture or other late romantic A part materializes on short notice. That said, a Bb instrument is optimized for Bb; And while you can make the tuner happy using an adapter, the adapted instrument isn't as resonant. Ultimately, a transposition will be best. But if you're short on time, the adapter is a good option. It was also neat to play a solid low concert Eb in the excerpt from the opening of Bizet's Carmen. I've never had a good pedal range.
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

matthes93401 wrote:
I promised to follow-up after I had pursued the A-adapter option...

So I reached out to TrueVee about making a Bb-to-A adapter for my CarolBrass Bb cornet (the model that looks like a Benge 8Z). The cornet mouthpiece adapter part, while beautifully machined, didn't produce a reliable key-of-A scale. I think the leadpipe taper employed by CarolBrass is significantly different than most.

Michael, at TrueVee, was very knowledgeable and professional. He offered a full refund.

I asked to try the stock TrueVee Bb-to-A adapter for trumpet, and it works pretty well for my Schilke X4B Bb trumpet. The difference is that the main tuning slide goes out at least twice as much, and the 1st and 3rd slides require twice the reach on notes involving 1, 1+2, 1+3, 2+3, and 1+2+3. The change is predictable. So a refund wasn't necessary, as I just applied the credit for the trumpet adapter.

I did also try the adapter on my CarolBrass Bb trumpet, but again, the results weren't reliable. Mr. Lee at CarolBrass must have designed leadpipes significantly different than those used in American trumpets.

So I'm happy with the outcome, now that I can have an adapter for reading parts in A. This is a major convenience when an Arthur Sullivan overture or other late romantic A part materializes on short notice. That said, a Bb instrument is optimized for Bb; And while you can make the tuner happy using an adapter, the adapted instrument isn't as resonant. Ultimately, a transposition will be best. But if you're short on time, the adapter is a good option. It was also neat to play a solid low concert Eb in the excerpt from the opening of Bizet's Carmen. I've never had a good pedal range.


Thanks for sharing!
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illegalbugler
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Cornet in a Reply with quote

dfcoleman wrote:
I believe Schilke made a few A cornets at one point.


The Schilke website lists "Key of A" as an option for the XA1 and the A1. Model numbers are XA1A and A1A respectively. I would think they are exceptionally rare. James Donaldson doesn't mention these models on his loyalist site.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FrankM wrote:
B&H Imperials and early Sovereigns have a movable crook as the tubing goes into the 3rd valve. This gives enough leeway to lower them to A. The main slide on its own isn't long enough. Cheers, Frank.


Hi FrankM

I have a later B&H Imperial, in low pitch with the fixed mouthpiece receiver. I never thought to use the extra slide to lower the cornet to A. This could actually be useful, as I come across cornet in A parts from time to time in my orchestras. I usually use my Yamaha Xeno, but could take my Imperial.

What please are the amount to pull all the slides, to bring the Imperial into A?

Many thanks

Lou
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just experiment with a tuner for the slide pulls.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Cornet in a Reply with quote

illegalbugler wrote:
dfcoleman wrote:
I believe Schilke made a few A cornets at one point.


The Schilke website lists "Key of A" as an option for the XA1 and the A1. Model numbers are XA1A and A1A respectively. I would think they are exceptionally rare. James Donaldson doesn't mention these models on his loyalist site.


Not sure if they were listed online before. I noticed they list several models they had not been listing for years such as an E2-L and the AC-1.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
Just experiment with a tuner for the slide pulls.


Hi Dale

Thank you very much, but I haven't got a tuner other than my ears. If there was just one slide to pull, I could listen to each note and tune it, but with the main tuning slide, this extra slide, and the relevant slides for each individual note, which do I move first? I suppose it doesn't really matter, as it is the total amount of slide pull which matters at the end of the day, but I wouldn't mind some ideas of where to start.

All the best

Lou
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Gabrieli
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roughly speaking just to try it out:

Main tuning slide 1 2/3 inches
First slide 1/5 of an inch
3rd slide 1/3 of an inch.
2nd slide not worth bothering.
I think this is more or less correct but no doubt someone will correct me if not.

Isn’t it easier just to transpose?
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gabrieli wrote:
Roughly speaking just to try it out:

Main tuning slide 1 2/3 inches
First slide 1/5 of an inch
3rd slide 1/3 of an inch.
2nd slide not worth bothering.
I think this is more or less correct but no doubt someone will correct me if not.

Isn’t it easier just to transpose?


Hi Gabrieli

Thank you very much, this is really appreciated. Does anyone know the pull required for the extra slide on the Boosey and Hawkes Imperial? Many thanks.

Personally I don't really like the semitone transposition whilst playing, and if I have the music in advance, I normally transpose the music so that I can play it on Bb cornet.

FrankM mentioning how the extra tubing on the Imperial could be used to lower the pitch to A (does anyone know the reason for this extra tubing in the first place, other than to empty water (I don't think I've ever had to empty water from this place)), which interested me.

All the best

Lou
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FrankM
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou, just picked up on your post. My Imp is a late model number 513233 and using a Wick 5 that inserts 23mm I pull the slides as follows.
Main is long enough to lower the pitch to 'A' but it only leaves 10 or 11 mm engaged.
So I set the main slide to 33mm and the secondary slide to 15mm. The 3rd slide is then pulled to 12mm and the 1st slide to 9mm.
That should put you in the ball park with enough tube engaged in all 4 crooks to keep leakage to a minimum.
Cheers, Frank.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
Just experiment with a tuner for the slide pulls.


Hi Dale

Thank you very much, but I haven't got a tuner other than my ears. If there was just one slide to pull, I could listen to each note and tune it, but with the main tuning slide, this extra slide, and the relevant slides for each individual note, which do I move first? I suppose it doesn't really matter, as it is the total amount of slide pull which matters at the end of the day, but I wouldn't mind some ideas of where to start.

All the best

Lou

Take another cornet/trumpet you have (or a piano if you have one) and tune the Imperial to it, beginning with the open note on the Imperial, the written C in a part written for Cornet in A. Proceed to tuning the valve slides after that.
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wilder
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked William Vacchiano about the "built in change to A" on Bach trumpets during one of my lessons with him which was funny because he was such a fanatic about transposition. But, he also was a real gearhead about equipment too so he explained it to me. Its simple. First you pull out the main tuning slide so the notes sound a half step lower with the normal fingerings. You will have to tune to something, a piano, tuner, tuning fork, another player or just one of your other horns. For example, play a first space F sharp on your fluegelhorn then when your 2nd line G matches it on your "A" trumpet you are basically done. 1st slide comes out a 1/4 inch, the 3rd slide a 1/2 inch and you are all set. Do not worry about the 2nd slide. It doesn't matter. Just play around with it and I guarantee you will hear it. Keep in mind that it will not play quite as in tune as in Bflat because the bell is not being lengthened when you put it in A. jw
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illegalbugler
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Cornet in a Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:
illegalbugler wrote:
dfcoleman wrote:
I believe Schilke made a few A cornets at one point.


The Schilke website lists "Key of A" as an option for the XA1 and the A1. Model numbers are XA1A and A1A respectively. I would think they are exceptionally rare. James Donaldson doesn't mention these models on his loyalist site.


Not sure if they were listed online before. I noticed they list several models they had not been listing for years such as an E2-L and the AC-1.


They updated their website in the last year or two. These models and options - that I assume are still being ordered - were added. I spend too much time on their website.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FrankM wrote:
Hi Lou, just picked up on your post. My Imp is a late model number 513233 and using a Wick 5 that inserts 23mm I pull the slides as follows.
Main is long enough to lower the pitch to 'A' but it only leaves 10 or 11 mm engaged.
So I set the main slide to 33mm and the secondary slide to 15mm. The 3rd slide is then pulled to 12mm and the 1st slide to 9mm.
That should put you in the ball park with enough tube engaged in all 4 crooks to keep leakage to a minimum.
Cheers, Frank.


Hi Frank

I'm very sorry for the slow reply. Thank you very very much for this, which is really appreciated.

Thanks again

Best wishes

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
Just experiment with a tuner for the slide pulls.


Hi Dale

Thank you very much, but I haven't got a tuner other than my ears. If there was just one slide to pull, I could listen to each note and tune it, but with the main tuning slide, this extra slide, and the relevant slides for each individual note, which do I move first? I suppose it doesn't really matter, as it is the total amount of slide pull which matters at the end of the day, but I wouldn't mind some ideas of where to start.

All the best

Lou

Take another cornet/trumpet you have (or a piano if you have one) and tune the Imperial to it, beginning with the open note on the Imperial, the written C in a part written for Cornet in A. Proceed to tuning the valve slides after that.


Hi Dale

I'm very sorry for the slow reply.

Thank you very much.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That second tuning slide was originally the main tuning slide on old cornets. The "main" slide was mobile and operated with the thumb. You can spot those ones because they have a wide loop for your finger to go into. Then in the 30s they started advertising the second slide as a "high to low pitch" adjuster - at the time when commercial music was in low pitch and brass bands were in high pitch. I have a cornet with the two slides and it plays much better with the "main" slide all the way in and the tuning done on the secondary slide.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
That second tuning slide was originally the main tuning slide on old cornets.

Hi Gordon H

Very interesting, thank you very much.


The "main" slide was mobile and operated with the thumb. You can spot those ones because they have a wide loop for your finger to go into. Then in the 30s they started advertising the second slide as a "high to low pitch" adjuster - at the time when commercial music was in low pitch and brass bands were in high pitch.

Again interesting, thanks. I wonder why they continued this feature on the later low pitch Imperial, like I have.

I have a cornet with the two slides and it plays much better with the "main" slide all the way in and the tuning done on the secondary slide.

I'll have this to try this, thanks.

Best wishes

Lou

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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B&S make a Bb/A cornet. Its model "Brochon". It has the two main tuning slides. The second one has a slide with a rotary valve that inserts an A tuning slide into the tubing. I believe its 550 euros extra to have the A slide though!
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
B&S make a Bb/A cornet. Its model "Brochon". It has the two main tuning slides. The second one has a slide with a rotary valve that inserts an A tuning slide into the tubing. I believe its 550 euros extra to have the A slide though!


Hi GordonH

Interesting, many thanks.

Best wishes

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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