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M or S bore cornets?



 
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:06 pm    Post subject: M or S bore cornets? Reply with quote

Hi,

I know cornets are usually large bore horns. But I've been interested in medium or even small bore cornets (new or vintage).

I can only think of a few models:
- Bach model 31 cornet - M bore
- King Master - M bore
- Selmer Signet (silver plated, with the pinky ring) - S bore

...and that's about what I know.

What other M or S bore cornets (new or vintage) can you add to this list?

Thank you!
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bixtone
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Bach M bore cornet with a 38 bell that is rapidly becoming my favorite horn, and have seen some with 37 bells.
Other makes off the top of my head:
Schilke XA-7
Many Buescher cornets, including the 400
Conn 6A and 28A
Conn 84A
Conn Wonder
John Heald
"The Olds" cornet M and LM bore
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conn The Wonder. Small bore. I have two of them now. Fun to play.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is much confusion over what is small medium and large bore

Conn bore size names are different for trumpets and cornets for example

Conn small bore cornet is .458 but this bore size is their medium trumpet size

Conn medium bore cornet size is .468 but this bore size is their large trumpet size

Conn large bore cornet size is .484 but there is no bore size this large in conn trumpets

As for Bach the stradivarius cornet range is as follows

D180 is .448
D180L and D189 are .459
D189XL is .462
190 192 193 196 are all .401
B188 is .485
B185 is .459

There is absolutely no standardisation or consistency and the terms small medium and large are meaningless

The D180 and the 190 192 193 and 196 are all smaller than a conn small bore.

The D180L the D189 and the B185 are all within 1 mm of conn small bore.

It is probably better to go by size in mm or inches alone and avoid the small medium and large definitions as they appear to be misleading.

This Bach and Conn bore size nonsense has only served to make me look favorably now on a large bottle of jack daniels to ease my pain.

That is 30 minutes I wont get back
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BraeGrimes
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:

This Bach and Conn bore size nonsense has only served to make me look favorably now on a large bottle of jack daniels to ease my pain.

That is 30 minutes I wont get back


Hahahaha- this is SO true. I'll go as far to say, I've been thrown off the trail of talking about bore sizes all together. I've played horns of all bore size and found no consistency in what I liked and what bore size it is. I play a Connstellation 28A (Cornet) most of the time now, and I don't even CARE what the bore size is.

Having said that, I love nerding out, and have learned a lot here so far.
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loweredsixth
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reynolds Professionals were 0.453.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
Conn large bore cornet size is .484 but there is no bore size this large in conn trumpets


Conn 28B and 29B Concert Grand model, built 1921-1932 was 0.484" bore.

For those interested in observing chaos, here's a chart of bore sizes by maker: http://www.trumpet-history.com/Bore%20sizes%20and%20codes.pdf
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bigger differences are going to be due to overall instrument design rather than just bore size. In the 70's Boosey and hawkes marketed their medium bore models as for soloists and large bore as best for section players. Here is a video of me playing the same tunes on a modern large bore cornet and a vintage small bore cornet:


Link

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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn it OldSchoolEuph you trumped me.

Thank you for the informative update.

I find this is upon occasion the downside of frequenting a forum with members who actually know their sh1t.

Your sources are better than my sources, respect to you as ever OldSchoolEuph.
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Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
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Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
As for Bach the stradivarius cornet range is as follows

D180 is .448
D180L and D189 are .459
D189XL is .462
190 192 193 196 are all .401
B188 is .485
B185 is .459

??????

The models above beginning with "D" are D trumpets, not cornets.
196 is a piccolo trumpet. 190 is an older Eb trumpet.
B188 is a bass trumpet
B185 is a herald trumpet, pretty much a stretched out ML model 37
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the clarification ProAm

Thats the problem with the internet half the information is posted by people of below average intelligence. My sources were suspect.

Knowledge as they say is king.

I am still of the opinion that bore size as measured in large medium and small is largely meaningless in instruments, and the actual size in inches or mm is more meaningful.

What does large mean and is large of one manufacturer the same large as the large in another.

We do know that mm are the same in all manufacturers as are inches.
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Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing wrong with the indications S, M, ML, ML+, LB, XL, XXL to describe ONE aspect of a horns' properties.
As long as you remember that these qualifications are not the same for different instruments.
So can a large bore fl├╝gel have a 0.459 bore which is a ML bore on a trumpet.
About the same with cornets, in fact if you want to use the bore qualifications S, M, Ml and so on you have to consider that with cornets everything moves one step back.
So ML by trumpet is M by cornet, L bore by trumpet is ML by cornet.
So a 0.468 bore is L by trumpet, ML by cornet.
This is a rough description because a 0.462 bore is considered a L bore by Bach and Yamaha trumpets (= a ML bore for cornet) and a Benge 0.464 bore on their trumpets is considered a ML+ bore. So the letter bore indications are nothing more than a global indication of one of the aspects of the horn in question and in that sense have a certain but not absolute worth.
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