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Geneva Symfonie or Besson Souvereign?



 
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BertKremer
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Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 91
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject: Geneva Symfonie or Besson Souvereign? Reply with quote

Hi, I am looking for a used cornet with the British cornet sound. Which one will be a good choice?
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Stomvi Tit�n Bb 170 Flugelhorn Brass Band Edition
Curry 1.5 FLD-B mouthpiece
Van Laar Bb Trumpet
Curry 1.25 FL mouthpiece mouthpiece
CarolBrass Bb Cornet 3850 GLS
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GordonH
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play a Besson Prestige, but I did do a trial of the Geneva. The Geneva is easier to play, but I felt it was lacking in character. They now make other models though like the Cardinal - which may be better. Richard Marshall now endorses this model.

The Prestige is a very fluid instrument with an even response. You need to try one for yourself to make that decision.
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

In this regard, I feel that mouthpiece choice comes into play. My experience of the Besson Sovereign, is that it requires a more open mouthpiece to get the best out of it, with a more open throat and backbore, such as a Denis Wick.

I've found that other British Brass Band cornets such as the Yamaha Maestro, Xeno and Neo, and Geneva Symphony and Oldroyd Cardinal models will play well with a mouthpiece with a smaller throat and tighter backbore, although not a Bach C cup, which you wouldn't want to use on a British Brass Band style cornet anyhow.

I've bought and sold three Besson Sovereign cornets, because I prefer a mouthpiece with a smaller throat, and my preferred mouthpiece results in an odd stuffiness on the Sovereign, which rather than a tight blowing feeling, just feels like a deadness of response. I've come to the conclusion that the smaller throat just doesn't allow the player to put enough air into the Sovereign, as the Sovereign comes alive in my hand with a mouthpiece with a more open throat.

The Geneva Symphony plays well with a larger variation of mouthpieces. Personally I'm not that keen on the Geneva Symphony. Ok in my opinion, but not as good as my Yamaha Xeno. A player in my previous brass band plays a Geneva Oldroyd Cardinal, and from the brief go I had on it, I really liked it, but because it played very much like my Yamaha Xeno.

I'm not sure what you are playing at the moment, but if flugel in a brass band, as evidenced by your signature, and you are not set on a particular mouthpiece, I'd go with the Besson Sovereign and a Denis Wick mouthpiece.

If like me, you'd already spent years playing something else, in my case a Bach 184ML with a Bach cornet mouthpiece, and want to use your existing cornet mouthpiece, I think that you will probably find the Geneva Symphony an easier choice.

I hope that this will help.

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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BertKremer
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Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 91
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've forget to mention that I am looking for a cornet for home use, not in public or in a band. The Flugelhorn will be my main instrument; in a Dutch Fanfare-band.
But I am looking for a different sound. And I'm looking for a good second hand (Geneva Symphony??) cornet or maybe a new YCR Yamaha 4330 GSII
Fifty years ago I started on a cornet and I like to owne a cornet again; just for fun.
As I am used to the Curry mouthpieces, I think I will choose the Curry 1.25BBC cornet mouthpiece.
_________________
Stomvi Tit�n Bb 170 Flugelhorn Brass Band Edition
Curry 1.5 FLD-B mouthpiece
Van Laar Bb Trumpet
Curry 1.25 FL mouthpiece mouthpiece
CarolBrass Bb Cornet 3850 GLS
Curry 1.25 BBC
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bert

Thank you very much for the further clarification, which is really appreciated.

I think that the Curry 1.25BBC would be an excellent mouthpiece choice for the playing situation you describe. I have Curry 3DC., 3TC. and 3BBC. cornet mouthpieces. I haven't tried any of them on a Besson Sovereign, but they all play well on my Yamaha Xeno, with the 3TC. being my personal favourite.

Out of the Besson Sovereign and the Geneva Symphony, I personally think that the Geneva Symphony would be the better choice for your personal circumstances.

I again hope that this will help.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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BertKremer
Regular Member


Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 91
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Louise,

And the Geneva Symphony is , probably, far a better choice then the Yamaha YCR-4330 GSII? I found a good looking, used Geneva for about the same price as a new Yamaha.

Best Wishes,

Bert
_________________
Stomvi Tit�n Bb 170 Flugelhorn Brass Band Edition
Curry 1.5 FLD-B mouthpiece
Van Laar Bb Trumpet
Curry 1.25 FL mouthpiece mouthpiece
CarolBrass Bb Cornet 3850 GLS
Curry 1.25 BBC
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bert

You are very welcome.

The Yamaha YCR-4330 GSII is obviously an intermediate model, as shown by the 4 in the model number, whereas the Geneva Symphony is a pro model cornet. I'd personally say that you would be better off buying a used good condition pro model for the price that you would pay for a new intermediate model.

You however still do need to like the cornet you are buying. Can you try the Geneva Symphony before buying? A Geneva rep once brought the Symphony to my old band room, and we passed it amongst the cornet section. As Principal cornet, I got to spend a reasonable amount of time on it, and wouldn't have swapped my Yamaha Xeno for it, which was again my opinion when I tried a colleague's Geneva Symphony.

She later switched to the Oldroyd Cardinal, and I liked it a lot more than the Symphony. I also noticed that it played a lot more like my Xeno.

We are however talking about my preferences. I could have lived with the Geneva Symphony if lent a band one.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Voltrane
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Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Paris (France)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not play in a BBB but I play my Besson Sovereign with a Curry 3 BBC. It is by far the best set up for me. With the Wicks (2 or 2B) I sound « dull ».
I also use sometime a 3TC when I need a sound a little more “trumpy”.
Both are very good mouthpieces.
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trumpetmike
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Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 11314
Location: Ash (an even smaller place ), UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having seen a number of Geneva instruments, I would purchase pretty much anything instead of these.
The reason you see a fair number of them come up second-hand is that the build quality is less than impressive.

Black Dyke are now endorsing Geneva and I am just waiting to see the first time that an instrument fails on the contest stage - it is only a matter of time. They must have had a serious financial part to this deal.

Yamaha instruments are going to hold their value and the build quality is one of the finest in the business.
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Bflatman
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Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not about playability tone intonation ease of reaching notes

It is about length of service robustness and repairability.

If I pony up 2 grand on a Besson or Yamaha and gig the crap out of it I know my tech will fix the issues I create by mistreating the instrument in a performance and in the practice hall.

I want to know I can rely upon 10 or 20 years service in punishing conditions.

Will a tech repair a Geneva. Or is it money down the drain when I need a repair.

We are talking here about the czech republic who gave us such delights as the Amati kraslice and the gems of Bohland and Fuchs of Grazlitz.

I own a Bohland and Fuchs and it is a decent instrument and I gigged it unmercifully until the bell crook bent and the brace fell off.

I held the instrument and bent it back in my hands this is not the most robust instrument made - no tools were needed.

The build quality is not up to the highest standards I wouldnt drop a couple of grand on one or base a career on one.

Amati and Bohland were decent but were made of questionable materials. I am guessing geneva is better but guessers are losers in this world.

When there is doubt, there is no doubt.
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GordonH
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Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2893
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geneva instruments are made in the Amati/Cerveny factory. I am not sure the exact tie up, but Geneva seems to have some financial interest in Cerveny. Philip McCann is now endorsing a new cornet from Geneva, but I have not tried it. That makes three pro models - Geneva, Cardinal and Heritage.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM
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