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Getting A Brighter "Brassier" Sound



 
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John9999
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Joined: 27 Jun 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:48 am    Post subject: Getting A Brighter "Brassier" Sound Reply with quote

Hi,

I can't seem to get a nice bright brassy sound. Seems more like a Flugelhorn. Not sure if it's me, or ...? I've been reading about mouthpieces and wondering how much difference that would make. Right now, I have a 7C, which, from the reading I've been doing is apparently a .

Just wondering if anyone has any tips on either the technique of getting a nice bright more piercing trumpet sound, and/or the mouthpiece.

Thanks.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you say that your sound seems more like a flugelhorn, is that your impression, or that of people who listen to you? Have you tried recording yourself? Your impression of your sound from one end of the horn may be quite different than what folks here on the other end of the horn.

If you have a teacher ask what he/she thinks about your sound. If you are a beginner and you are getting a big, full sound...I would suggest that you not make any changes for a while. As your skills develop you'll be better able to achieve the kind of sound you want, and messing around with gear now may actually set you back from that goal.

If you are more experienced and want to experiment with different mouthpiece set-ups -- some certainly favor a brighter sound -- then you could try something like a Bach 7D, or contact Curry, Frost, GR, Monette, Pickett, Reeves, Stork...and ask what they would recommend. [Edit: There are a number of variables in mouthpiece design that affect the sound, so reaching out to one of them for assistance is far more likely to yield a good result than guesswork on your part.]

Good luck!
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your mouthpiece seems to 'fit' your lips and teeth, it should be fine.
The typical 7C size and shape is completely adequate to produce a good 'brass sound' - full tone, with a 'clean' sound, and plenty of 'presence'.

Here is something that I have just recently discovered in my own playing.
From the low F# up to about the C in the staff, I seem to have a little 'fuzz' in the sound - which I can only hear when listening carefully, or when I record myself.

To remove the 'fuzz', I've been experimenting with using a little more LOWER LIP pressure on the rim - not much, just a slight bit of pressure from pressing my lower jaw and lower lip forward gently against the rim (not by pulling the rim inward against my lip, and not changing the horn angle).
Yes, it feels very different than my usual way of playing, but it does seem to reduce (and hopefully eliminate) the 'fuzz'.

I think the 'fuzz' results from some uncontrolled buzzing of my lower lip, and a slight increase of lower lip pressure stops the unwanted buzz.

This might not work for you - and I'm not sure of its long term value to me! But I'm trying it now

I'd like to read comments from others about how and why they 'balance' the amount of upper and lower lip pressure.

Jay
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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A change of equipment might help.Shallower cups and tighter back bores might help. Different trumpet brands and models are built to sound either brighter or darker.
Without seeing and hearing you I would recommend asking your teacher or other musicians.One thing I have found that makes a difference, is working on breath support.Thinking about filling the horn and projecting your sound can help,and a lot less expensive then changing equipment.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're using a Bach 7C. A Bach 7E or 7EW could be the place to start and would be the least expensive to experiment with.

More important will be to train your embouchure to get a nice easy clear tone on the 7C. Free buzzing and mpc buzzing exercises are what I use to develop this.
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kgsmith1
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Joined: 30 Nov 2019
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Location: Greater Chicago

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this a 7c in good condition, from a reputable manufacturer? Why does this mouthpiece sound like an eye roll and what would you prefer? It's a medium small (ish) mouthpiece which is fine to get started.

If the mouthpiece isn't damaged or if questionable origin I would take a look at your practice routine and playing habits - even if a 7c isn't the right mouthpiece for you it shouldn't sound like a flugelhorn. If you've acquired habits that lead to a certain sound, then switching equipment is likely to get expensive and if anything worsen and further complicate bad habits.

Something like the first four exercises in Jim Thompson's Buzzing Basics is good for getting a well coordinated, relaxed, and consistent approach that should produce a good sound.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: Getting A Brighter "Brassier" Sound Reply with quote

John9999 wrote:
Hi,

I can't seem to get a nice bright brassy sound. Seems more like a Flugelhorn. Not sure if it's me, or ...? I've been reading about mouthpieces and wondering how much difference that would make. Right now, I have a 7C, which, from the reading I've been doing is apparently a .

Just wondering if anyone has any tips on either the technique of getting a nice bright more piercing trumpet sound, and/or the mouthpiece.

Thanks.


How long have you been playing? What make/model trumpet do you play? What is the condition of the trumpet?
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
If your mouthpiece seems to 'fit' your lips and teeth, it should be fine.
The typical 7C size and shape is completely adequate to produce a good 'brass sound' - full tone, with a 'clean' sound, and plenty of 'presence'.

Here is something that I have just recently discovered in my own playing.
From the low F# up to about the C in the staff, I seem to have a little 'fuzz' in the sound - which I can only hear when listening carefully, or when I record myself.

To remove the 'fuzz', I've been experimenting with using a little more LOWER LIP pressure on the rim - not much, just a slight bit of pressure from pressing my lower jaw and lower lip forward gently against the rim (not by pulling the rim inward against my lip, and not changing the horn angle).
Yes, it feels very different than my usual way of playing, but it does seem to reduce (and hopefully eliminate) the 'fuzz'.

I think the 'fuzz' results from some uncontrolled buzzing of my lower lip, and a slight increase of lower lip pressure stops the unwanted buzz.

This might not work for you - and I'm not sure of its long term value to me! But I'm trying it now

I'd like to read comments from others about how and why they 'balance' the amount of upper and lower lip pressure.

Jay


Hi Jay! I would tell you what Doc Reinhardt said: always play with more pressure on the lower lip, simply because it can handle more. This is good for everybody.

What you have done is thrust your lower jaw forward which is an entirely separate element that may or may not bring you closer to his teaching goal of "working with what Mother Nature gave you." Describing how this all works in my own playing may have no bearing on you, and this is the genius of his teachings that still live on through the sub-forum dedicated to him here. He closely observed as many high level players as he could, took extensive notes, and applied good scientific method to discover various ways to play that all work. I can tell you that his Encyclopedia is the best trumpet investment I've ever made, and I was first paid to play 44 years ago. It's a prerequisite for a lesson from any of his students that I know of. Reading there may give you some insight, as well as who you might take lessons from.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: Getting A Brighter "Brassier" Sound Reply with quote

John9999 wrote:
Hi,

I can't seem to get a nice bright brassy sound. Seems more like a Flugelhorn. Not sure if it's me, or ...? I've been reading about mouthpieces and wondering how much difference that would make. Right now, I have a 7C, which, from the reading I've been doing is apparently a .

Just wondering if anyone has any tips on either the technique of getting a nice bright more piercing trumpet sound, and/or the mouthpiece.

Thanks.


Technique. I will tell you it's 100% technique. It's remotely possible that your trumpet is mechanically suffering, in which case a good cleaning should fix it. It's more likely that since our ears are on the wrong side of the bell that you don't really know what you sound like. It is possible that you are hearing a legitimate problem with your playing that is flawed fundamentals.

It's also possible that you're playing beautifully with a gorgeous sound, in which case a mouthpiece change is an easier way to help you get a sound you prefer than adjusting your technique would be. This is the least likely of all possibilities, and it takes most of us many years of real dedication and hard work to achieve that.

The way for you to find out is a very standard answer here: "get a teacher." Hard to do under our current crisis, and of course I don't know if you're in an area with 0 infected people for a very long way or if you're in a hot spot. Skype lessons are well suited for this, and just about everybody here has their favorites to recommend. Mine can be found via my last post.
Even just a lesson over the phone can be helpful with a really good teacher who's used to doing that.

I'll give you a brief history lesson: the C cup was originally created with the goal of getting a bright, penetrating sound that projects through large, loud ensembles. Usually to get something mellower than that requires a deeper cup, but some players do naturally get this mellower type sound. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and a really good goal is to cooperate with your own physiology, as well as the laws of physics that make this instrument work. In other words, we all spend time to learn to not fight the horn, and once learned we need to spend time to maintain that skill.
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Beyond16
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Joined: 07 Jan 2020
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Location: Texas Gulf Coast

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't overlook air leaks as a possibility. It's pretty unlikely with a newer instrument, but not with vintage. The trickiest one I encountered was in the tubing inside one of the valves. Water key and solder leaks are common with vintage horns. Best test is to close the bell end with a rubber ball (and maybe water for sealing) then try to put air through. Repeat with valves closed too.

I had given my daughter a Buesher 400 to play with because she takes band next year. She quit practicing so I took it back to clean and put away. I tested it and something was wrong. Closing the bell with a sshhmute and finger showed an air leak, even though it passed before I gave it to her. It turns out a pin-point had developed in the lead pipe. Guess it had some corrosion I was not aware of.
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, the 7C is a dark mouthpiece. So maybe the shallower 7's, or a 3C.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a prior thread the OP said he was a novice. In that thread he asked if everyone damages their lips. On the basis of that I think it's fair to assume that the OP is a beginner experiencing the kinds of things players tend to experience as a beginner.

When you were a beginner experiencing what you experienced as a beginner would a different mouthpiece have made any significant difference? Wouldn't suggestions about changing mouthpieces from a 7C have been pretty silly at that point in your development? Does anyone really think the mouthpiece is the problem when beginners sound like beginners?

If the OP played the most expensive Monette trumpet and had every Monette mouthpiece made and experimented with them all does anyone really think that would instantly turn the OP into a player making a great sound?

Other than "Go and practice and don't expect instant miracles" I don't see that there's anything to really discuss here.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
In a prior thread the OP said he was a novice. In that thread he asked if everyone damages their lips. On the basis of that I think it's fair to assume that the OP is a beginner experiencing the kinds of things players tend to experience as a beginner.

When you were a beginner experiencing what you experienced as a beginner would a different mouthpiece have made any significant difference? Wouldn't suggestions about changing mouthpieces from a 7C have been pretty silly at that point in your development? Does anyone really think the mouthpiece is the problem when beginners sound like beginners?

If the OP played the most expensive Monette trumpet and had every Monette mouthpiece made and experimented with them all does anyone really think that would instantly turn the OP into a player making a great sound?

Other than "Go and practice and don't expect instant miracles" I don't see that there's anything to really discuss here.


Very good.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few things come immediately to mind.

What you perceive from behind the mouthpiece can be quite different from what others perceive on the other side of the bell. Consider getting a Zoom recorder and recording yourself from a distance away. In better times, I'd recommend placing the recorder at one end of a rehearsal band-room and you at the other end, or do the same using a performance hall. This would allow you to hear what you really sound like. You would probably be surprised.

A Bach 7C is a moderately deep mouthpiece. A Bach 3C is considerably shallower. Nevertheless, lots of players can get a beautiful ringing sound on a 7C. It just might be easier on a shallower mouthpiece.

Are you listening to players who have the sound that you want to have? Consider listening to those players constantly, several times throughout the day. Immerse your head in that sound so that's the sound you have in your head. Then have the intention to emulate it.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Embouchure: corners firm (-----), chops flat against teeth, lips together. Now blow and buzz your lips maintaining that embouchure. Keep tongue in front of mouth with a "hew" vowel. Don't overblow, you want to sound like a mosquito, not a fog horn. Next put the mouthpiece up to your lips and repeat. Next put the mouthpiece in your trumpet and remove the tuning slide. Set embouchure and blow, relax and let chops find the pitch of the leadpipe. repeat.
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John9999
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all very much for taking the time to post your various tips and suggestions.

Will keep at it!
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kramergfy
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

Don't worry about the equipment for now; just work on listening to trumpet players you admire, and trying to keep that sound in your head. When you play, try to emulate that sound. Sometimes more air is the answer, sometimes not. Sometimes it's less mouthpiece pressure on your lips, sometimes not. Both of those things (inadequate airflow, and too much pressure) can sometimes dampen the sound we get. In my experience most novice players can either play extremely "blasty" and crude, or dull and airy, depending on physiology. Both will need to learn different things. But best to get some lessons, either in person (if thats possible in your area) or via the internet. Best of luck.
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trptmindfk
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the 3C might be a good choice. Still might be a bit dark for you. Caution, about the Bach D and E cups, they have different back bores from the standard C cup.

All D cups come with the 76 BB, very tight but can sound brighter. The E cups come with the 117 BB, very large and meant for the Piccolo. A different BB from these is a special order, very expensive!

I would try a Schilke 13B or 14B, 14 is a little wider. Yamaha has similar numbers but they are not as open as the Schilke. Good Luck!
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