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Pro Players vs. Amateurs


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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:15 am    Post subject: Pro Players vs. Amateurs Reply with quote

What do you think is the biggest difference between the playing of a pro and a reasonably experienced amateur?

Is it the quality of their sound, the way the notes are connected, rhythm, dynamics? Maybe something else?
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience playing with with musical ensembles of any genre and any skill level:

It's time. Time-feel. Amateurs CONSTANTLY RUSH. My god, just finish the phrase! Play all of beat 4! Don't rush the syncopations! ARRRGGGHHHH!

Please, do not rush. Please play with good time and then we can all get down to the business of swinging. Whether it's classical, jazz, or whatever. The greats play with INCREDIBLE time.

When you slow down a Clark Terry or Wynton record to half-speed to transcribe a solo, it's immediately obvious that even slowed down their notes are right on and still swing like crazy.

Try recording yourself and slowing it down to half speed. Then tell me how good your time sounds.

After that, I would definitely say SOUND.

And of course, TIME and SOUND are bound up in the most important musical skill: LISTENING. Great musicians play with their ears open and react and blend accordingly. That's what allows you to play with great time and a great sound that blends.

But seriously, in my opinion time-feel is the most serious difference between the pros and the rank amateurs.

(I apologize for all the caps but I sometimes play with a pianist that rushes and I want to throw him out a window.)

Cheers.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me - in choosing whether to go out of my way to attend a performance, the biggest difference is that with 'reasonably experienced amateur' groups or individuals I don't have high expectations about the quality of the performance. I might go because of some personal connection, curiosity, other activities at the event, etc.
With a pro group or individual, I have more confidence that the music (or something else in the event) will be worthwhile.

My experience is that most 'amateur' performances work best when they are part of a larger event that by itself will attract an audience.
Free Beer and Pizza is always a great draw!

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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely agree with both of you guys. When I play back my stuff I often wince at how rushed I sound.

Another thing I notice right away is the difference between a player who obvioiusly understands chord progressions and how to find what Lee Morgan called "the pretty notes."

I've played with guys who have a nice sound and even decent time but so many of their note choices are just wrong.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Pro Players vs. Amateurs Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
What do you think is the biggest difference between the playing of a pro and a reasonably experienced amateur?


None. The term "Professional" just means one who performs a task as his source of income.

I've played with "professionals" who were shysters and hacks and some "amateurs" who played their butts off.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me rephrase the question:

What's the difference between a really good player and one who isn't so good.

Turkle pretty much nailed it but I'm looking for nuances. Lord knows I have the time to ponder them these days.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
Let me rephrase the question:

What's the difference between a really good player and one who isn't so good.

Turkle pretty much nailed it but I'm looking for nuances. Lord knows I have the time to ponder them these days.


Turkle gave you the nuances. The big picture is as you stated it. One person is objectively not good (time, sound, pitch, phrasing) and the other person is good in those same categories. The subjective side is debating about sound and phrasing.

People who don't rest on their laurels and are consistently improving their skills are "good". Folks who think they are the going to win auditions or keep getting gigs with shoddy time and poor sound but won't listen to any criticism are typically "not good". I think this echoes what Kehaulani said. I've met many folks who didn't go to school for music and are not earning their living playing the horn who are fantastic. I've met many "pros" who only talk about themselves and put others down in an attempt to make themselves seem bigger who can't seem to get certain things right.
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was in an airport five or six weeks ago (when people were still flying [insert sad icon face here]), and thought I noticed Wayne Bergeron standing around at a gate I was near. Indeed, it was him and we wound up on the same flight. There was an open seat near him and, while I didn't want to intrude (overly), I did want to at least acknowledge him and say hi. He was extremely most kind.

We talked about horns, mouthpieces, sight-reading, and a few other things. After we'd discussed most of what I could think of that was interesting to me (and he was very involved), I made a comment. "Wayne," I said, "I know you're one of the top commercial players in LA. I'm sure you're great at sight reading, you have outstanding range, super tone, and you're dependable. But I have to believe that one of the reasons you're so busy (he shared some details of his three recording sessions the day before) is that you're just SO NICE!"

He sat there for a moment, and then responded, saying, and I recall it exactly, "There are a lot of a--holes out there!".

In listing the attributes of really good players, there should be some level of decency involved. We all know, or have heard, of guys with dazzling abilities that no one wants to play with. Wayne said it so well; we don't want to be one of those, well, those guys.

One other thing, while I'm thinking about it. I have always found people to trust me quite quickly, often telling me things that later they'll apologize for; details about people and events that they didn't expect to share but found themselves very comfortable around me. Wayne, and we discussed a lot of horn makers, mouthpiece makers, pro players, etc., he had NOTHING bad to say about anyone or anything. He did make some honest and forthright comments about equipment and makers, but he was extremely respectful. As you can tell, I found Wayne to be not only informative but remarkably kind and gracious. And I think we'd all put him up there as one of the 'great players' and a top pro as well.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
Let me rephrase the question:

What's the difference between a really good player and one who isn't so good.

Turkle pretty much nailed it but I'm looking for nuances. Lord knows I have the time to ponder them these days.


You want the really good player because that player represents what you're trying to create. The not so good player is filling a position and you hope that player doesn't get in the way.

The technical differences are typically:

1. Reading: There is usually a big difference between the really good player and the not so good player in reading ability.

2. Sound: There is typically a big difference between the really good player and the not so good player in the fullness/strength of the sound at any volume level.

3. Articulation: Really good players play the short notes short and crisp. Not so good players don't play the short notes as short and as crisp as the really good players.

4. Concept: Really good players play concepts. Not so good players just play notes. "Concepts" include the time and style.

There's been some mention here of differences in improvisation. To me, solos are not an exercise in democracy. I don't assign solos to be nice. I assign solos for them to be played well. Improvisational ability varies widely among players. Being a really good section player has no automatic correlation to being a good improvisational player. In fact, a not so good player overall might be a significantly better improvisational player than a really good player overall. You have to look at this on a player by player basis.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Chicago, I have been fortunate to play with some world class players, some of them Chicago Symphony members.
They play in perfect time. The subdivision that is going on internally separates them from even very competent players.
They know exactly what they are trying to say through their instrument and have developed the means to do so.
When the director says play, they are ready to do so.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd just add to all of the great responses here. Consistency.
A pro (whether they make their living playing or not...) is consistent in their playing. Fresh or tired, well or sick, hungry or famished, whatever.

Someone once told me "The difference between a pro and the rest of us is that on a pro's worst night, they sound better than you do on your best night."

keith
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to sit next to a first-call L.A. studio guy who had played lead in some great, name bands. But he was going through a bad time and took it out on us and was just a drag. After a while, no matter how good he was, practically no one wanted to work with him.
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nzhangtrpt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, the same question can be asked as: What's the difference between those who went through conservatory and systematic training and those who didn't?
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
They know exactly what they are trying to say through their instrument and have developed the means to do so.

There are different ways to look at this.

There's an economic connotation when we talk about professionals vs amateurs, as has already been pointed out.

There's a technical difference, which many people here discussed.

There a behavioral difference, as JonathanM illustrated.

But for me, the most important difference is along the lines of what Vin DiBona said. An accomplished player knows how to "communicate" with his/her instrument. It's not how many notes he/she knows, it how these notes are used to covey a message to the audience.

Mike
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nzhangtrpt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am an amateur musician, although not sure if "serious" enough as you called it. I am also a professional engineer. When people ask what I do for a living and what I do for fun, I tell them engineering and playing the trumpet, respectively. When it comes to engineering, I constantly remind myself to live up to the standards, meet deadlines, have professional etiquette, so that I can keep my job. However, when it come to music, I am just having fun and striving for the best musician I can be today and a better self tomorrow. The biggest different I'd say is mindset.
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kgsmith1
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are definitely "bad pro" and "good amateur" behaviors - a couple that come to mind:

Bad pros who can't blend with a section at dynamic extremes will smile, nod, and play mezzo forte when asked to play pianissimo. (They last longer as pros this way than if they fracked attempting the pp, while amateurs will attempt to play outside their capabilities since they don't know their limits and want to attempt to play what they hear in their heads.)

Good amateurs invest time and energy in refined performances of music for which there isn't a lot of commercial demand. I know some people get paid playing in brass bands, but there are groups out there that sounds great because they have a body of committed amateurs.

Another twist on the question is "what do pros care about, and what do amateurs care about?" Amateurs want to be able to increase their abilities to play the music they find too difficult, while pros want to be able to play more easily. Listening to the Monster Oil interviews, you hear Terry Everson, Peter Bond, Malcolm McNab and others describe a pivotal stage of their career where realized their careers depend on playing with ease, not playing difficult music. Even for pros at lower levels, you realize your Easter gig audiences don't care if you hit the high D in the Hallelujah Chorus, but everyone notices if you're dead tired and can't play through the last hymn of back-to-back-to-back services.
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kgsmith1
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An aside - I've definitely heard amateurs I enjoyed more than pros. I think the goals are different - if I were playing to pay rent today I'd be playing different stuff than what I work on for myself.

Also - pros know they get called by other pros, and will be very proficient in areas that even most good amateur musicians can't hear. The pro's customer is the contractor, section leader or conductor, as much as the audience.
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nzhangtrpt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am curious on the difference between the best pros and the best amateurs. The things that even the best of the best amateurs cannot achieve without going through systematic conservatory training and having the needs of performing several hundred times in premier orchestras/ensembles/etc every year.

In my opinion this difference is directly related to their different needs. If the best amateurs expect themselves to perform several hundred times in a premier orchestra every year, then they won't expect themselves to be merely an amateur. If the most profound orchestras, ensembles, studios, the individuals in them, and the number of performances they give out each year define the absolutely best human music-making can be, then we can say not all of the characteristics these ensembles and individuals possess can be achieved by even the best of the best amateurs. Otherwise these best of the best amateurs won't call them amateurs, but professionals. It is like the difference between a genuine watch and a replica. How do you make a replica a genuine? You cant, because by definition it simple is not.


Last edited by nzhangtrpt on Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Troy Sargent
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time, Pitch, Sound, Musicality are the big four that distinguish “levels” of players. Those have all been discussed already.

However, these all stem from something more fundamental listening/ears. On professional gigs if something changes we have to hear it right away and adjust. For example, if you are playing in a church and the organ starts changing intonation as its played we have to adjust immediately. Many players won’t notice till they are significantly out of tune. Matching tone quality, articulation, and style all stem from this too. Inexperienced players usually close off their ears when things are going badly, pros open them more. Really listening to yourself and hearing your own nuances also makes your practice more productive which means you progress faster, widening the gap.

The ability to adjust based on what you hear is also incredibly important.
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Troy Sargent
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nzhangtrpt wrote:
I am curious on the difference between the best pros and the best amateurs. The things that even the best of the best amateurs cannot achieve without going through systematic conservatory training and having the needs of performing several hundred times in premier orchestras/ensembles/etc.


I have an answer for that: fluency. A professional player plays a horn the way that most people walk, read a book, or speak. They do not have to think about it. The only way to achieve that level of “subconscious competency” is to practice and perform for thousands of hours at a high level.
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