Pro Players vs. Amateurs

[nzhangtrpt]

I think the goal or one of the goals of the gentleman who created this thread is to know what should a devoted amateur work on to imitate the pros assuming the pros' music making is superior. The good pros can ask this question for their students, and the amateurs can ask this for self-improvement. Knowing so, I think everyone who contributed in this thread is very meaningful.

[Turkle]

[Voltrane]

The truth is that pros spend less time on Internet than amateurs ('')

[jimspeedjae]

I've had a period playing professionally and before and after done a lot of semi-pro and these days back down the curve to less and less amateur stuff - some good, some downright indifferent, but often still challenging music.

I used to say that as a good amateur I knew that I could play everything right, but as a pro, I knew I wouldn't play it wrong.

It was a mindset thing that came from the fact that when I did it for a living, the horn wasn't off my face very much, either with the band or practising. Though as a pro there were more occasions when I was off my face doing pro-level amounts of drinking too. Fortunately, that's less and less now too.

[Vin DiBona]

Voltrane, you hit the nail on the head.
A very famous player once said to me something on the order of "The very frequent posters obviously don't have playing jobs very often or they wouldn't have time to post so much".
R. Tomasek

[Turkle]

[wayben]

Well...I've got the farting around part handled anyway, lol.
Wayne
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[mike ansberry]

[quote="
I have an answer for that: fluency. A professional player plays a horn the way that most people walk, read a book, or speak. They do not have to think about it. The only way to achieve that level of “subconscious competency” is to practice and perform for thousands of hours at a high level.[/quote]

I have had the privilege if standing in sections of top notch players. They play it right every time. Time, sound, concept, everything. It amazes me that they can come in and read a really hard lead book and nail it to the wall the first time. That is because they function like the above quote says. They don't have to think about what they are doing. They see the music, they hear it in their brain, and it just flows out of the horn.
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[kehaulani]

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I think Troy's answer about fluency is right. For a while I followed violin boards and on violin it's almost impossible to be a major player if you didn't start very early.

I think on trumpet it sure helps if you grow up steeped in music, maybe studied something else as a child, and then put in a ton of hours c. ages 15-25 on your instrument. I think a lot of us amateurs have never had a period where we put in 40 hours/week on music, whereas a lot of pros do.

I think it's a good question, and there can be a lot of joy and integrity in being an amateur, with all our limitations, even as respect and admire the pros who contribute so much.

[nieuwguyski]

I was once a rather good semi-pro trombonist. Once a week, I played brass ensemble music at the local community college with a mix of local pros and other good semi-pros. The level of playing was pretty high, so I was motivated not to be the weak link. All this group of players did was sight-read music, for whatever instruments happened to show up that night (the instructor had an amazing library of brass music).

One night I was the only semi-pro that showed up. The leader brought out the "hard stuff." One piece in particular was just ridiculous -- syncopated rhythms, mixed meters, accidentals out the wazoo, nothing longer than an eighth note, and a scary tempo marking that I assumed would be ignored for sight reading.

Nope. As the piece was counted off, my heart sank.

And then I had a near-out-of-body experience. Actually, it was an out-of-mind experience. I achieved a level of mental focus I've only experienced once or twice in my life. I read that piece pretty much perfectly.

After which, the leader looked at me and said, "You could be pretty good, if you'd only practice!" And in that moment I realized that I needed to play at that level, all the time, to sit at their table.

Not too many years later I made a hard switch to trumpet, despite the fact that I would more than likely never be as facile on trumpet as I had been on trombone.

Because playing trumpet makes me happier than playing trombone, and I won't be a professional on either.
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[Robert P]

Hard question to pin down - there are pros and there are pros.

There's someone like in his prime Doc who could do things nobody else could do, who would make a lot of other "pros" sound somewhat amateur in comparison.

There are players who many other trumpet players whoop and holler over whose playing makes me cringe - their whole schtick is playing loud and high and any kind of musicality takes a back seat. One in particular I'm thinking of I personally don't think their high range even sounds good - has a squeally, forced, frantic sound. Virtually every time he picks up a horn he goes through the exact same drill. He gets big applause for it.

Thinking of one guy in particular probably next to no one has heard of who wasn't a technical beast, had average range but could play a superbly crafted improvised solo.

Players like Chet Baker or Louis, who had a niche they fit into and did very well at, but neither could have cut it for example as a member of the Carson Tonight Show band.
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[blbaumgarn]

For me, the top quality of the ones that Hermokiwi listed was listening. Getting better and better at sight reading is extremely important, too. The advice I would have to young people is to get involved in as many different experiences as you can. Some may be a reach but "what the hey." That will give you some sightreading. Technical stuff involves work and listening involves being able to play a piece of music while trying to hear your section in a band, plus other parts or to hear the other musicians in a small group to see if it is blending. Those are just MHO things. I never really played professionally. My opinion on listening as a supreme musical skill was echoed by actor Robert DeNiro who said he thinks more than anything being a good listener is key to being a good actor. It's a fascinating subject.
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[epoustoufle]

That, and being able to play Carnival of Venice with one finger.

[hose]

A word that has come up several times in this thread is "consistency". It seems the working pro's good or bad days are not as extreme as amateurs. Additionally, the pro has worked on his/her weak points so that all the necessary skills/rudiments are at a high level. Amateurs (or lessor players) have more extreme weaknesses that become obvious when the chips are down. It's a shaded line on the skill continuum where the pro level turns into the amateur level.
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[Jaw04]

Some players make the instrument sing and some sound like they are fighting a battle, and sometimes losing. When somebody is making the instrument sing, whatever style of music they play, I know it right away and especially I FEEL it in my body. I feel I'm getting baptized in their sound. If I don't get that feeling, I'm not interested in listening to them perform.
It's like a movie, if you aren't transported into the story, the movie is bad. If you can't suspend your disbelief at what's going on, and you can tell you are watching a set of actors reading dialogue, that's not the experience you want to have. We could talk about all the details of why that is, but it's a pretty black and white distinction in my mind.
It's not one thing, it's the ability to transport the listener into the musical world.

[vwag]

[dershem]

The real pros, in my experience, are the ones who actively listen, not just to simple stuff like intonation and articulation (things amateurs often don't pay enough attention to), but to phrasing, musicality, blending and intent. Some of that is from spending enough face time with the horn to make the mechanics of it second-nature, but more of it is attitude.

I took my shot at LA and have worked with Wayne and Andy and Mic and Bobby and people at that level, and the thing that they all have in common is that don't take it for granted or assume they're great - they constantly work at being aware and getting better at what they do... sometimes with unexpected
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[ChuckK]

Good amateurs get things right. Professionals say something and have a way of drawing you into the moment.
Good players are dependable. Great players make the others musicians sound better.
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[TrentAustin]

Being able to pick up the phone call for any job and perform more than just adequately. That was one thing when I was playing professionally I particularly enjoyed. The more versatile and also competent you are as musician the more you'll work. Also don't be a jerk.

My two cents

T
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