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nzhangtrpt Regular Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2017 Posts: 25 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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I think the goal or one of the goals of the gentleman who created this thread is to know what should a devoted amateur work on to imitate the pros assuming the pros' music making is superior. The good pros can ask this question for their students, and the amateurs can ask this for self-improvement. Knowing so, I think everyone who contributed in this thread is very meaningful. |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | In Chicago, I have been fortunate to play with some world class players, some of them Chicago Symphony members.
They play in perfect time. The subdivision that is going on internally separates them from even very competent players.
They know exactly what they are trying to say through their instrument and have developed the means to do so.
When the director says play, they are ready to do so.
R. Tomasek |
You really hit on something important there, which I wish I had included in my response. "When the director says play, they are ready to do so." The word for that is CONSISTENCY. I know we all have bad chop days, and maybe you drank too much last night, or didn't get in a good warmup, or had a spicy lunch, or you just aren't feeling the vibe tonight, man. No one cares! To make it as a pro you need to be ready on the downbeat every time! Because if you're not, they'll find someone who is.
No one went to hear the NY Phil and had to say, "Oh, Phil Smith had an off night." Nope! No one hears Wynton and thinks, "Ah, he must have been using the wrong valve oil." Nope! They are ready on the downbeat to make some serious music.
But also, time feel. Yep. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 629 Location: Paris (France)
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:22 am Post subject: |
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The truth is that pros spend less time on Internet than amateurs ('') |
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jimspeedjae Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 165
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:42 am Post subject: |
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I've had a period playing professionally and before and after done a lot of semi-pro and these days back down the curve to less and less amateur stuff - some good, some downright indifferent, but often still challenging music.
I used to say that as a good amateur I knew that I could play everything right, but as a pro, I knew I wouldn't play it wrong.
It was a mindset thing that came from the fact that when I did it for a living, the horn wasn't off my face very much, either with the band or practising. Though as a pro there were more occasions when I was off my face doing pro-level amounts of drinking too. Fortunately, that's less and less now too. |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Voltrane, you hit the nail on the head.
A very famous player once said to me something on the order of "The very frequent posters obviously don't have playing jobs very often or they wouldn't have time to post so much".
R. Tomasek |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Voltrane wrote: | The truth is that pros spend less time on Internet than amateurs ('') |
Ha! I don't know, though - there are some "extremely online" trumpet pros out there, that certainly frequent this site (some use pseudonyms and burner accounts to remain anonymous).
I don't remember who it was - maybe Mark Gould? - Well, anyway, someone of that stature in the classical world who specifically recommended reading a book or a website like Trumpet Herald when you practice as a way to encourage yourself to take breaks. It was in a video somewhere.
All of which is to say that farting around on this website, done properly, can be beneficial to your practicing! _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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wayben Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 60 Location: usa
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Well...I've got the farting around part handled anyway, lol.
Wayne _________________ Calicchio 1s7 Trumpet
Lawler C7 Trumpet
Harrelson Summit Prototype Trumpet
Conn 40B Trumpet
Yamaha YTR-6310z Trumpet
Bach LR18037 Trumpet
Bach 184 Cornet |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:00 am Post subject: |
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[quote="
I have an answer for that: fluency. A professional player plays a horn the way that most people walk, read a book, or speak. They do not have to think about it. The only way to achieve that level of “subconscious competency” is to practice and perform for thousands of hours at a high level.[/quote]
I have had the privilege if standing in sections of top notch players. They play it right every time. Time, sound, concept, everything. It amazes me that they can come in and read a really hard lead book and nail it to the wall the first time. That is because they function like the above quote says. They don't have to think about what they are doing. They see the music, they hear it in their brain, and it just flows out of the horn. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9008 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Voltrane wrote: | The truth is that pros spend less time on Internet than amateurs ('') |
I would generally agree with that, but I had a crazy, free-lance schedule that included practicing at home as well as giving lessons. So I had plenty of break intervals that were long enough to get a few posts in but not long enough to start another project. And it added up to a regular internet presence. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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I think Troy's answer about fluency is right. For a while I followed violin boards and on violin it's almost impossible to be a major player if you didn't start very early.
I think on trumpet it sure helps if you grow up steeped in music, maybe studied something else as a child, and then put in a ton of hours c. ages 15-25 on your instrument. I think a lot of us amateurs have never had a period where we put in 40 hours/week on music, whereas a lot of pros do.
I think it's a good question, and there can be a lot of joy and integrity in being an amateur, with all our limitations, even as respect and admire the pros who contribute so much. |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2347 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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I was once a rather good semi-pro trombonist. Once a week, I played brass ensemble music at the local community college with a mix of local pros and other good semi-pros. The level of playing was pretty high, so I was motivated not to be the weak link. All this group of players did was sight-read music, for whatever instruments happened to show up that night (the instructor had an amazing library of brass music).
One night I was the only semi-pro that showed up. The leader brought out the "hard stuff." One piece in particular was just ridiculous -- syncopated rhythms, mixed meters, accidentals out the wazoo, nothing longer than an eighth note, and a scary tempo marking that I assumed would be ignored for sight reading.
Nope. As the piece was counted off, my heart sank.
And then I had a near-out-of-body experience. Actually, it was an out-of-mind experience. I achieved a level of mental focus I've only experienced once or twice in my life. I read that piece pretty much perfectly.
After which, the leader looked at me and said, "You could be pretty good, if you'd only practice!" And in that moment I realized that I needed to play at that level, all the time, to sit at their table.
Not too many years later I made a hard switch to trumpet, despite the fact that I would more than likely never be as facile on trumpet as I had been on trombone.
Because playing trumpet makes me happier than playing trombone, and I won't be a professional on either. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2595
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hard question to pin down - there are pros and there are pros.
There's someone like in his prime Doc who could do things nobody else could do, who would make a lot of other "pros" sound somewhat amateur in comparison.
There are players who many other trumpet players whoop and holler over whose playing makes me cringe - their whole schtick is playing loud and high and any kind of musicality takes a back seat. One in particular I'm thinking of I personally don't think their high range even sounds good - has a squeally, forced, frantic sound. Virtually every time he picks up a horn he goes through the exact same drill. He gets big applause for it.
Thinking of one guy in particular probably next to no one has heard of who wasn't a technical beast, had average range but could play a superbly crafted improvised solo.
Players like Chet Baker or Louis, who had a niche they fit into and did very well at, but neither could have cut it for example as a member of the Carson Tonight Show band. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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blbaumgarn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:20 pm Post subject: Pro player vs. Amateur |
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For me, the top quality of the ones that Hermokiwi listed was listening. Getting better and better at sight reading is extremely important, too. The advice I would have to young people is to get involved in as many different experiences as you can. Some may be a reach but "what the hey." That will give you some sightreading. Technical stuff involves work and listening involves being able to play a piece of music while trying to hear your section in a band, plus other parts or to hear the other musicians in a small group to see if it is blending. Those are just MHO things. I never really played professionally. My opinion on listening as a supreme musical skill was echoed by actor Robert DeNiro who said he thinks more than anything being a good listener is key to being a good actor. It's a fascinating subject. _________________ "There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
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epoustoufle Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2015 Posts: 232 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:22 am Post subject: |
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That, and being able to play Carnival of Venice with one finger. |
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hose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 1854 Location: Winter Garden, FL
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 am Post subject: |
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A word that has come up several times in this thread is "consistency". It seems the working pro's good or bad days are not as extreme as amateurs. Additionally, the pro has worked on his/her weak points so that all the necessary skills/rudiments are at a high level. Amateurs (or lessor players) have more extreme weaknesses that become obvious when the chips are down. It's a shaded line on the skill continuum where the pro level turns into the amateur level. _________________ Dave Wisner
Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 899 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Some players make the instrument sing and some sound like they are fighting a battle, and sometimes losing. When somebody is making the instrument sing, whatever style of music they play, I know it right away and especially I FEEL it in my body. I feel I'm getting baptized in their sound. If I don't get that feeling, I'm not interested in listening to them perform.
It's like a movie, if you aren't transported into the story, the movie is bad. If you can't suspend your disbelief at what's going on, and you can tell you are watching a set of actors reading dialogue, that's not the experience you want to have. We could talk about all the details of why that is, but it's a pretty black and white distinction in my mind.
It's not one thing, it's the ability to transport the listener into the musical world. |
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vwag Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2016 Posts: 180 Location: Denver, CO
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Troy Sargent wrote: |
I have an answer for that: fluency. A professional player plays a horn the way that most people walk, read a book, or speak. They do not have to think about it. The only way to achieve that level of “subconscious competency” is to practice and perform for thousands of hours at a high level. |
I think this is a KILLER answer. |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:39 am Post subject: |
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The real pros, in my experience, are the ones who actively listen, not just to simple stuff like intonation and articulation (things amateurs often don't pay enough attention to), but to phrasing, musicality, blending and intent. Some of that is from spending enough face time with the horn to make the mechanics of it second-nature, but more of it is attitude.
I took my shot at LA and have worked with Wayne and Andy and Mic and Bobby and people at that level, and the thing that they all have in common is that don't take it for granted or assume they're great - they constantly work at being aware and getting better at what they do... sometimes with unexpected _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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ChuckK Regular Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2020 Posts: 35 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio USA
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Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Good amateurs get things right. Professionals say something and have a way of drawing you into the moment.
Good players are dependable. Great players make the others musicians sound better. _________________ Never confuse beauty with things that put your mind at ease. - Charles E. Ives |
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TrentAustin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 Posts: 5485 Location: KC MO
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