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happyhorn Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2020 Posts: 11 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:19 pm Post subject: Teeth & Embouchure |
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I’m an older returning player at 66. Over the years, my lower teeth have worn down a bit and are displaced slightly. The dentist tells me this is normal for a guy my age. Now the problem is my mouthpiece placement. Since they’re no longer perfectly aligned (flat) and worn down, some of my teeth dig into my lower lip and my mouthpiece sets on the edge of my lower teeth since they’re now shorter. As you can imagine, this is uncomfortable. Is there any work around for my situation? There is really no where to change the mouthpiece placement since all my lower front teeth are now crooked and worn down. I’ve tried going to a larger/wider mouthpiece but the contact point on my lower remains the same. |
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YBChen Regular Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2012 Posts: 19 Location: 美国
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to hear your issues with the lower teeth. I've been struggling with dental issues on my playing for quite a while. Changing a bigger mpc might here since it covers more surface on your teeth, which gives better support on the lower teeth. However, it requires more strength to play as well. It will be worthwhile to get some dental wax to make the crooked lower teeth flat first to see if that helps. If that does, dentists can help you solve that issue for sure. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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I have wondered if there is a prosthetic like an athletic mouth guard that could be made by your dentist to sit over your lower teeth and simulate your old lower teeth alignment. |
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happyhorn Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2020 Posts: 11 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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YBChen wrote: | Sorry to hear your issues with the lower teeth. I've been struggling with dental issues on my playing for quite a while. Changing a bigger mpc might here since it covers more surface on your teeth, which gives better support on the lower teeth. However, it requires more strength to play as well. It will be worthwhile to get some dental wax to make the crooked lower teeth flat first to see if that helps. If that does, dentists can help you solve that issue for sure. |
The only way I come up with is to pucker your lips toward the center or purse your lips (like a kiss) to create more of a cushion for the mouthpiece to rest. However, that’s like setting up a BRAND NEW EMBOUCHURE. I sound worse than a beginner! Maybe it’s called the Maggio Embouchure? Can’t remember for sure. |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I also am curious about mouthpieces or wax to go over damaged, crooked, or missing teeth. Also if a wedge mouthpiece might be useful in this situation. I don't have any experience with either but those are just ideas. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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I've always had fairly crooked bottom teeth and that hasn't been a problem.
Due to a big problem with my top teeth (I'll spare you the details) I've had to go through a top front tooth extraction and I'm currently undergoing orthodontics, in my case, Invisaligns. To compensate for the missing tooth I've learned that I can play with the top tray installed. I can play with the lower tray covering my bottom teeth though in my case I find it harder. Might work for you, though it's an expensive thing just to try.
There's another thing that has helped me. I used to have just a couple or point on my teeth that would dig into my lip. One day I complained to my dentist. After some discussion he took a tool and blunted those points. Problem solved. I was concerned about the enamel but he assured me it would be fine.
And just to mention it, my nominal embouchure never produces significant force on my lower teeth. If I make a concerted effort I can extend my jaw to produce significant pressure on my lower lip and it always results on a fat lower lip, so I don't. Is it at all possible that you raise your horn angle or pull back your jaw just slightly to reduce the pressure on the bottom lip? _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Last edited by cheiden on Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:15 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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happyhorn Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2020 Posts: 11 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I've always had fairly crooked bottom teeth and that hasn't been a problem.
Do to a big problem with my top teeth (I'll spare you the details) I've had to go through a top front tooth extraction and I'm currently undergoing orthodontics, in my case, Invisaligns. To compensate for the missing tooth I've learned that I can play with the top try installed. I can play with the lower tray covering my bottom teeth though in my case I find it harder. Might work for you, though it's an expensive thing just to try.
There's another thing that has helped me. I used to have just a couple or point on my teeth that would dig into my lip. One day I complained to my dentist. After some discussion he took a tool and blunted those points. Problem solved. I was concerned about the enamel but he assured me it would be fine.
And just to mention it, my nominal embouchure never produces significant force on my lower teeth. If I make a concerted effort I can extend my jaw to produce significant pressure on my lower lip and it always results on a fat lower lip, so I don't. Is it at all possible that you raise your horn angle or pull back your jaw just slightly to reduce the pressure on the bottom lip? |
Well I’ll certainly give this a try! Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll also talk to my dentist about it. |
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YBChen Regular Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2012 Posts: 19 Location: 美国
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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happyhorn wrote: | YBChen wrote: | Sorry to hear your issues with the lower teeth. I've been struggling with dental issues on my playing for quite a while. Changing a bigger mpc might here since it covers more surface on your teeth, which gives better support on the lower teeth. However, it requires more strength to play as well. It will be worthwhile to get some dental wax to make the crooked lower teeth flat first to see if that helps. If that does, dentists can help you solve that issue for sure. |
The only way I come up with is to pucker your lips toward the center or purse your lips (like a kiss) to create more of a cushion for the mouthpiece to rest. However, that’s like setting up a BRAND NEW EMBOUCHURE. I sound worse than a beginner! Maybe it’s called the Maggio Embouchure? Can’t remember for sure. |
Compensating with an embouchure change might help in some circumstances and yes, pucker is a big idea from Maggio. I would suggest using wax to see if it helps first. I agree with others who posted that crooked lower teeth usually doesn't cause much issues for players. There are many great players have crooked lower teeth, but most of them don't have crooked upper teeth. However, once the crooked lower teeth become a problem, it really bothers...Flatten out the lower part should help if the technique is used right. |
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YBChen Regular Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2012 Posts: 19 Location: 美国
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I've always had fairly crooked bottom teeth and that hasn't been a problem.
Do to a big problem with my top teeth (I'll spare you the details) I've had to go through a top front tooth extraction and I'm currently undergoing orthodontics, in my case, Invisaligns. To compensate for the missing tooth I've learned that I can play with the top tray installed. I can play with the lower tray covering my bottom teeth though in my case I find it harder. Might work for you, though it's an expensive thing just to try.
There's another thing that has helped me. I used to have just a couple or point on my teeth that would dig into my lip. One day I complained to my dentist. After some discussion he took a tool and blunted those points. Problem solved. I was concerned about the enamel but he assured me it would be fine.
Wow, you are a lucky guy!! My front upper and lower teeth are all crooked, and one summer I went to the dentist to take one sharp point off. And I lost a fourth of range at least, could barely trumpet again.
And just to mention it, my nominal embouchure never produces significant force on my lower teeth. If I make a concerted effort I can extend my jaw to produce significant pressure on my lower lip and it always results on a fat lower lip, so I don't. Is it at all possible that you raise your horn angle or pull back your jaw just slightly to reduce the pressure on the bottom lip? |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:08 am Post subject: |
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YBChen wrote: |
Wow, you are a lucky guy!! My front upper and lower teeth are all crooked, and one summer I went to the dentist to take one sharp point off. And I lost a fourth of range at least, could barely trumpet again. |
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Was removing "one sharp point" the cause of your range loss?
How much change was done to your teeth?
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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YBChen Regular Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2012 Posts: 19 Location: 美国
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:24 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | YBChen wrote: |
Wow, you are a lucky guy!! My front upper and lower teeth are all crooked, and one summer I went to the dentist to take one sharp point off. And I lost a fourth of range at least, could barely trumpet again. |
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Was removing "one sharp point" the cause of your range loss?
How much change was done to your teeth?
Jay |
Really a tiny bit. My front teeth grow inward, so basically i lost the support point, which also hurts my lip. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:53 am Post subject: |
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I have a friend that's a monster high note player. His to front teeth overlap just a bit and there's a noticeable chip on the one of them. He tells that for cosmetic reasons he had a dentist fill that chip. If I recall correctly he said he lost an octave, and nothing he did seems to get it back. Before too long he found a file and and recreated the chip. Range came right back. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:05 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I have a friend that's a monster high note player. His to front teeth overlap just a bit and there's a noticeable chip on the one of them. He tells that for cosmetic reasons he had a dentist fill that chip. If I recall correctly he said he lost an octave, and nothing he did seems to get it back. Before too long he found a file and and recreated the chip. Range came right back. |
I lost about a fifth off my range when I had a similar chip repaired. It was horrible! Never got it back. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:30 am Post subject: |
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There’s a thread on here about John Hagstrom and dental prosthetics. That might be a place to start. |
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YBChen Regular Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2012 Posts: 19 Location: 美国
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, in terms of the teeth, it seems like as long as it works, just leave it there. But there is another aspect that sometimes gets overlooked. If it doesn't work, then what, and how to get it to work. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:02 am Post subject: |
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YBChen wrote: |
Really a tiny bit. My front teeth grow inward, so basically i lost the support point, which also hurts my lip. |
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In your particular situation, it seems that the 'sharp point' that was removed was also providing support and maybe also an unsupported small portion on lip area of lip that could vibrate for high notes. Removing the sharp point might have caused the previously unsupported lip are to become less flexible and inhibit playing those high pitches.
I am just explaining my thinking about your situation - I know it doesn't provide any help to recover the lost high notes.
How is your playable range now?
Is it extreme high range that is gone, or range that is needed for the usual type of playing that you do?
Are you experiencing any lip pain or injury now?
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:00 am Post subject: |
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I suggest you talk to a mouthpiece manufacturer. They often deal with situations like this and can very likely help you much better than anyone here.
Try calling, Phyllis Stork, Karl Hammond, Mark Curry, Pickett, Schilke, and if you have more money to spend, Bob Reeves, GR (Brian Scriver), and Warburton.
It may be a simple matter of a different rim with the crown of the rim moved outward or something a bit larger with a flatter rim.
Here is a listing of some more manufacturers.
http://www.trumpetperformancetips.com/trumpetlinks.html
R. Tomasek |
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